Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/osirə

Derivation

I recall reading somewhere that the initial *usi- is probably cognate with the us- root in 失う (ushinau, “to lose something”) and 失せる (useru, “to be lost or missing, to become lost or missing”). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

@Chuterix:

Re: this edit at Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/osiro, and then this edit over at Japanese 尻.

• For ushiro:

The only Ryukyuan reflex I can find for Japanese ushiro seems to be in the compound ʔusiruhuuzi. If this isn't a borrowing, then we have Japanese /u/ ↔ Okinawan /u/, which would require Proto-Japonic /u/.

Moreover, if ONCOJ results are to be believed, I find only one instance of usirwo, appearing just in the Nihon Shoki, and 16 instances of usiro, including three in the Nihon Shoki. This raises the distinct possibility that usirwo (i.e. ⟨usiro₁⟩) might be a typo / miscopy. Even if it isn't a miscopy, it's definitely less common than ⟨usiro₂⟩, /usirə/.

→ I suggest we fix the reconstruction and move this page to Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/usirə.

In addition, the oldest senses were not "back; behind" but rather "somewhere not visible", which aligns with the possible derivation from verbal root usi- (as in 失う (ushinau, “to lose”) and 失せる (useru, “to fade; to disappear”, from older usu)) + locative suffix -rə.

→ I have reverted your removal of that from the reconstructed entry.

Separately but relatedly, I suspect this might be related to adjective 薄い (usui, “thin; indistinct; faded”).

• For the Japanese 尻 entry:

Is there any evidence at all that the final vowel is from an older diphthong? I am not aware of any. If ushiro is from usi- + -rə, deriving 尻 (shiri) from the -si- and the -rə is straddling two morphemes in a strange way. Moreover, this ignores the existence of that initial u-.

→ I have accordingly reverted your reworking of the etymology at 尻#Japanese. I don't think such speculation belongs in mainspace entries.

• For Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/siroy:

This derivation seems very unlikely to me, per the above. Consequently, I don't think the move was appropriate.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the ref I used in PJ *siroy cannot be shared (for legal/copyright reasons), and https://www.academia.edu/65949234/On_one_more_source_of_Old_Japanese_i_2 doesn't seem to list the PJ *siroy section. The initial u- part would remain unexplained as you mentioned.

The Okinawan Dictionary Data Collection glosses ushiru (?usiru) as collar. See also Thorpe 1983 (p. 263).

Where did you find 16 instances of usiro (in the ONCOJ or something)? All I can find is the one in the Kojiki and a pillow word inausiro attested in only one poem (all 2 variants) of the Man'yōshū (book 8). The rest are Cusiro (where C is a (random) consonant that has nothing to do with usiro).

Also @Kwékwlos: Chuterix (talk) 05:15, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Oops also @Eirikr

I pinged @Kwékwlos for evaluation. Chuterix (talk) 05:18, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• @Chuterix: My sincere apologies!

As the saying goes, "Oh, FFS!" (directed at myself!)

Due to equipment failure, I'm on a backup loaner laptop, and I haven't yet configured everything to my liking -- and due to changes in IT policy, some settings I can't even get to on my own (limited permissions anymore: companywide change). That combined with the humbling realization that my eyesight isn't all that anymore, and we get to here.

More specifically, I forgot to add the \b bounding marker to the grep regex, and then didn't see that the hits past that first row weren't usiro as an isolated string.

→ So it seems we have only two confirmable instances of this term spelled out phonetically in Old Japanese: usiro₂ → /usirə/ in the Kojiki here, and usiro₁ → /usiro/ in the Nihon Shoki here. From my understanding of いなうしろ (inaushiro), the usiro portion is probably akin to むしろ (mushiro) and is not relevant to 後ろ (ushiro).

Given the initial u-, I still don't think that 尻 (shiri) can derive from 後ろ (ushiro). Given also that the /r-/ kana don't differentiate between 甲乙 vowel variants in OJP, I'm not sure how much of a case could be made for 尻 (shiri) evolving from a -roy ending -- unless we can find evidence for this term ending in a different vowel. I'm not aware of any 被覆・露出 variants for this term, but there might be some lurking in ancient texts somewhere.

At any rate, please accept my apologies for my confusion earlier. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 07:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• "If this isn't a borrowing, then we have Japanese /u/ ↔ Okinawan /u/, which would require Proto-Japonic /u/."

However, Japanese and all Ryukyuan languages raised *o to *u, and this word is in an environment where pR *u does not syncopate or contract, so only dialectial evidence from Mainland Japan can recover the initial vowel. Chuterix (talk) 16:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)