Talk:Нямеччына

Taraškievica spelling

@Atitarev I'm a bit confused as to how Нямеччына (Njamječčyna) is supposed to be an alternative spelling of Герма́нія (Hjermánija) - aren't these synonyms? I appreciate that one or other may be preferred, but I don't think that's directly related to the choice of orthography, is it? Theknightwho (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Taraškievica includes the choice of words too, it’s more than orthography. Наркамаўка (the opposite) prescribed what words should follow the Russian choice of words and orthography. Even if Расея sounds closer to Расія, it’s a different word too. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev I'n not sure it makes sense to call it a spelling, though, as it's a completely different word. @Vininn126 @Benwing what do you think? Theknightwho (talk) 23:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

A little list of words, which are different between нарка́маўка (narkámaŭka) and тарашке́віца (taraškjévica): Наркамаўка#Лексыкалёгія.

Labelling the terms as "Taraškievica" is correct but it's more than different spelling. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Spellings and alt forms are about morphemes, not lexemes. Vininn126 (talk) 03:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev It specifically states that it's ultimately down to the speaker's choice. Theknightwho (talk) 05:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho, there is no perfect rule regarding the distinction between the government spellings and words on one side and "Taraškievica" on the other side. The rule is loose but far from always. In Belarus, which is a dictatorship, wrong word choices or orthography may get you into a real trouble.

It's the users of "Taraškievica" who have more flexibility, they are more likely to use Няме́ччына (Njamjéččyna) and Герма́нія (Hjermánija) interchangeably.

I don't know where this discussion is going. Do you want to get rid of the label, category, changed the wording? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:10, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev That has nothing to do with it being etymologically a different form or a synonym. I think it would make sense to keep the category but not list it as an alt form, but a synonym, unless all the morphemes happen to be the same. Vininn126 (talk) 07:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126: In Герма́нія (Hjermánija), Няме́ччына (Njamjéččyna) is listed as a synonym. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev But Нямеччына is listed as a different spelling. Vininn126 (talk) 08:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126, @Theknightwho, @Benwing2: Няме́ччына (Njamjéččyna) goes into Belarusian Taraškievica spellings. What do you want changed? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Including @Ssvb in this discussion. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The Taraškievica orthography textbook from 1925 provides Германія as one of the examples: https://be.wikisource.org/wiki/Старонка:Беларускі_правапіс_(1925).pdf/96 (back then, the unstressed o was also used in foreign loanwords, such as the word географія, that was also listed on the same page). So as far as Нямеччына and Германія are concerned, these words used to be synonyms until 1933.

However, in 1933 the soviet commissars decided to fix the things they didn't like in the Belarusian language and outlawed the use of the word Нямеччына as a part of their spelling reform. They also outlawed the words жыд, міт and many others. It wasn't exactly a natural language evolution. The soviet commissars also never hesitated to imprison and execute everyone, who didn't comply or raised any kind of objections. A very important factor is that a large part of Belarus wasn't controlled by the USSR in 1933 and the soviet commissars physically couldn't enforce their language reform on the population of the western part of Belarus, controlled by Poland back then. That's the reason of the orthography split, which persists to this day.

Another important factor is that the Taraškievica orthography is officially outlawed in modern Belarus since 2010. It isn't a punishable offense for the private individuals yet (though I'm not so sure anymore), but it's officially forbidden in printed publications. And it's also illegal to import books with Taraškievica spelling into Belarus. As another example, if a student in school uses the word Нямеччына in their Belarusian language homework, then they will be likely graded badly. --Ssvb (talk) 12:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

With the географія example (which is геаграфія in modern Taraškievica), I wanted to show that there's also an additional distinction between Taraškievica-1918 and Taraškievica-2005. Do these spelling standards need additional separate categories? The word "Нямеччына" fits both of them. --Ssvb (talk) 12:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It might make more sense to point to the alternative form, and not the synonym, even if it's outlawed. I'm not sure. Vininn126 (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Can the lexical component of the Taraškievica differences be actually categorized as a dialect, spoken mostly by Belarusian-Americans and the other representatives of the Belarusian diaspora? It is also spoken by some people in Belarus, who at least sparingly use some words from its vocabulary, but it isn't perfectly safe for them to do so. --Ssvb (talk) 12:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho, @Vininn126, @Atitarev, @Benwing2: Not sure if I need to ping all of you. Does this discussion belong in BP for better visibility? --Ssvb (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It's fine here. I personally have thread notifications on for threads I'm subscribed to. Vininn126 (talk) 12:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

They still have their own categories. Vininn126 (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

So it's possible to resolve it by using {{lb|be|Taraškievica}} for such words like in your diff? Looks good to me. And it's similar to something like {{lb|en|North America|Philippines}} in the English articles. --Ssvb (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)