Talk:компьютер

@Atitarev A questionable pronunciation change by User:Brutal Russian, can you review? If this is wrong we may need to audit this user's Russian changes (although AFAIK they mostly edit Latin rather than Russian). Benwing2 (talk) 03:39, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Brutal Russian: I wouldn't promote this respelling "компью́тар" as standard but it doesn't strike me as definitely wrong or dialectal either, same with принтер and similar. If we are to keep this respelling, I'd prefer to put it as a second common after. I have checked with family to confirm but couldn't find any good reference on this.

What do other active Russian editors think - @Tetromino, Useigor?

@Brutal Russian, "компью́тер" is not a respelling ("компью́тэр" or "компью́тар" are, no need for |phon=) and it's non-standard, even if some people pronounce it this way.--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:20, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Atitarev: This was because the current Russian pronunciation module converts unstressed /э/ to [ɨ]. This to me is an impossible pronunciation. The final vowel in all these borrowings in -ер in ordinary speech is very clearly [ə]. Now since both /э/ and /а/ (including what's spelled as o) are reduced to [ə] in that environment, and there's no salient contrast bewteen the two, the vowel in компьютер for most people is phonemically the same as the vowel in телевизор (televizor), that is /a/. Again, it's possible to spelling-pronounce them with different vowels, but that's a separate matter. The pronunciation [kɐm⁽ʲ⁾ˈp⁽ʲ⁾jutɨr] "кампьютыр" can only be understood as a humorous exaggeration, a [косноязычие].

I fixed this while reading up on Russian vowel reduction which has two levels - phonemic neutralisation (like okanye, ikanye) and phonetic reduction (like /а/ [ə]) - see Talk:Russian_phonology. I haven't even corrected that article accordingly, but in generall correcting /э/ to give [ə] in the endings might be the right solution - I don't think there are any cases where the current [ɨ] is correct. In many cases it's not even correct in pre-stressed syllables - compare этаж (etaž) with pronunciations [on Forvo]. To circumvent having to deal with this I simply changed the phonemic transcription, because again in this case both phonemic transcriptions can correctly underlie the only standard pronunciation, which is [kɐmˈpjutər]. As for [kɐmˈpjutʲer], it may not be trendy, IT-savvy etc., but it's not that non-standard to me - what's happening here is the word is being nativised (in contrast to many other borrowings with hard consonants before /е~э/ that have resisted this for centuries). Brutal Russian (talk) 14:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Brutal Russian: What you probably think it's [ɛ], rather than [ə]. If you read articles about the Russian phonology, you'll see that the vowel reduction includes not just "о"/"а" or "е"("я")/и but also "э"/"ы". For some reason э/ы is less obvious and it shows when people try to speak very slowly and articulate words (also in songs). So no Russian argues that "молоко́" can be respelled as "малако́" but when asked about unstressed "е" or "э" they would articulate each unstressed vowel without any reduction but do reduce those words when speaking naturally. "е" in "бандеро́ль", "ада́птер", "цена́", "жена́" has the same phonetic value as "ы" in "дыша́ть". You seem to belong to the camp, which denies the reduction of unstressed "э" to "ы". E.g. in the Russian Wiktionary they don't even reduce it and make "бандеро́ль" as [bəndɛˈrolʲ], rather than [bəndɨˈrolʲ] and "ада́птер" as [ɐˈdaptɛr] rather than [ɐˈdaptɨr]. They reduce "о" to "а", "е" ("я") to "и" but "э" is denied any reduction, even if [ɨ] is the actual pronunciation of the unstressed "э" in the fast and natural speech. To me, it's "косноязычие" when people try to force pronunciation to match the spelling. I pronounce "эта́ж" and "компью́тер" with the same reduction but there may be some trends to ignore the reductions of "э" or "е" in a very slow and articulate speech (people who pronounce "эта́ж" [ɛˈtaʂ] can pronounce "переда́ча" as [pʲerʲeˈdat͡ɕə] as well, without the reduction of "е"). We are just going by what the phonologists say.

As for the palatalised version [kɐm⁽ʲ⁾ˈp⁽ʲ⁾jʉtʲɪr], let's go by references. Happy to add the alternative pronunciation if some evidence is given. It's a common word, please find some recording with a palatalised "т". We have done so in the past.

@Benwing2: Do we still have any links to orthoepic dictionaries, like Avanesov, Ivanova, Reznichenko, etc.? Perhaps, we should add some reference templates. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Brutal Russian Ivanova, Reznichenko and Avanesov all say [тэ]. Avanesov is here: [1] For the other two I only have PDF's. I will see about creating reference templates for these dictionaries. Benwing2 (talk) 03:35, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Different people may have different pronunciation and in my opinion current version should be changed. -tər: компью́тар > компью́тр. -tɨr: компью́тэр > компью́тыр. Compare Russian жолнер/жолнырь (žolner/žolnyrʹ), Russian канта́рь/ка́нтырь (kantárʹ/kántyrʹ), Russian ло́дырь/ло́дарь (lódyrʹ/lódarʹ), панцирь (pancirʹ) : пансырь (pansyrĭ), ло́парь/ло́пырь (lóparʹ/lópyrʹ). Also compare полымя (polymja), скорынья́ (skorynʹjá) and Church Slavonic пластырь (plastyrʹ). —Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2021 (UTC)