Talk:փաթիլ
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Vahagn Petrosyan in topic Aramaic borrowing
Georgian borrowing
[edit]@კვარია. I want to declare this a Georgian borrowing: compare ფთილა (ptila), ფრთილა (prtila), ფთილა-ფთილა (ptila-ptila). Chukhua reconstructs a Proto-Kartvelian, together with Svan ფითუ̂ (pitû). Is the reconstruction reliable? ფანტელი (panṭeli) may also be related. --Vahag (talk) 20:28, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Vahagn_Petrosyan: see my edit on ფანტელი (panṭeli). Chukhua has a lot of interesting comparisons, but I always make sure to cross-reference him with Fähnrich who seemingly read Chukhua 2003 in its entirety. ფთილა (ptila) already has an etymology in Fähnrich, page 431. კვარია (talk) 20:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Vahagn_Petrosyan: For Armenian փաթուլ (pʻatʻul), compare Laz პატულჲა, პატული (p̌aťulya, p̌aťuli). კვარია (talk) 21:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I also found patul- in dialectal Turkish and Pontic Greek. If the Laz word you found is the so far unknown cognate of the above-mentioned Kartvelian words, then all of them, together with Trabzon Armenian, are borrowed from Laz. Vahag (talk) 21:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- The vocalism doesn't fit. Upd: Well, actually, now that I think about it, if it derived from *pet-, then you'd expect a in Zan, but პ, ტ (p̌, ť)? I'm thinking this wird could ultimately be from Kartvelian, but Laz borrowed rather than inhereted it. How does the Pontic Greek form look? კვარია (talk) 22:04, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I expect a lot of Pontic materials by post. I will add all the relevant forms once I receive them. Vahag (talk) 18:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- The vocalism doesn't fit. Upd: Well, actually, now that I think about it, if it derived from *pet-, then you'd expect a in Zan, but პ, ტ (p̌, ť)? I'm thinking this wird could ultimately be from Kartvelian, but Laz borrowed rather than inhereted it. How does the Pontic Greek form look? კვარია (talk) 22:04, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I also found patul- in dialectal Turkish and Pontic Greek. If the Laz word you found is the so far unknown cognate of the above-mentioned Kartvelian words, then all of them, together with Trabzon Armenian, are borrowed from Laz. Vahag (talk) 21:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Aramaic borrowing
[edit]@კვარია, Vahagn Petrosyan: A well-known Semitic item, CAL translates “tuft of wool” in the Talmud and we have discussed on فَتِيل (fatīl) four years ago. Fay Freak (talk) 19:13, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: but in the Talmud quote "let him bring tufts of wool and weave a tampon" פתילתא corresponds to "tampon", not "tuft of wool", no? Vahag (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan:: Right, they translate גְבָבָא (they and Sokoloff, Michael (2002) A Dictionary of Jewish Babylonian Aramaic of the Talmudic and Geonic periods, Ramat Gan: Bar Ilan University, page 256a otherwise known from a stereotypical phrasing) as “tufts of wool/fiber” and the quote likely instructs to twist (جدل) a more compact product out of it—the difference is the manufacturing stage, without addition of any material. I say presumably because as it stacks “take this and then make that” the reader could see one act as not building upon the other: The context may be difficult to fathom (yikes) by reason of relating unreasonable practices, the Hebrew kenner Alexander McCaul No. XXV “Charms” has an English rendering of our context Gittin, fol. 69, col. 1, translating as “threads”, of wool (פתילתא דעמרא). Fay Freak (talk) 22:34, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- I will look into this once I collect all the evidence on this word in my vast library. Vahag (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan:: Right, they translate גְבָבָא (they and Sokoloff, Michael (2002) A Dictionary of Jewish Babylonian Aramaic of the Talmudic and Geonic periods, Ramat Gan: Bar Ilan University, page 256a otherwise known from a stereotypical phrasing) as “tufts of wool/fiber” and the quote likely instructs to twist (جدل) a more compact product out of it—the difference is the manufacturing stage, without addition of any material. I say presumably because as it stacks “take this and then make that” the reader could see one act as not building upon the other: The context may be difficult to fathom (yikes) by reason of relating unreasonable practices, the Hebrew kenner Alexander McCaul No. XXV “Charms” has an English rendering of our context Gittin, fol. 69, col. 1, translating as “threads”, of wool (פתילתא דעמרא). Fay Freak (talk) 22:34, 24 July 2022 (UTC)