Talk:曜輪
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Justinrleung in topic RFV discussion: February–June 2021
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Rfv-sense: A transliteration of the Classical Syriac male given name ܝܘܚܢܢ (different from the first sense). — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 18:24, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @justinrleung: Hey, I'm totally new to wiktionary's functions, and I had created the page for 曜輪 without even an account. It took me a while to figure out how to even comment here. Anyways, in brief, you will find that this name, 曜輪, appears as one of the Syriac-Chinese bilingual inscriptions inscribed on the famous Xi'an Steele: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi%27an_Stele). One of the Syriac names on that steele is transcribed as ܝܘܚܢܢ (Yūḥanon), which is the Syriac name for the Apostle John, whose Chinese equivalent is also etched into that stele as 曜輪. You can find substantiation for this if you see the bottom of Page 233 and the beginning of Page 234 for this article: https://www.mq.edu.au/pubstatic/public/download.jsp?id=51269 (Citation: Lieu, S. N. C. (2009). Epigraphica nestoriana serica. In W. Sundermann, A. Hintze, & F. de Blois (Eds.), Exegisti monumenta: festschrift in honour of Nicholas Sims-Williams (pp. 227-246). (Iranica; Vol. 17). Wiesbaden, Germany: Harrassowitz) --IohannesAndreas (talk) 19:14, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- (Copied from User talk:Justinrleung): I understand that this is for the apostle John, but is it attested elsewhere to refer to another John or "Yūḥanon"? If not, then we probably should not have such a definition separate from the first sense. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 19:37, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- (Copied from User talk:Justinrleung) @Justinrleung: Hello! Thank you. :) Yes, the name ܝܘܚܢܢ (Yūḥanon) refers both to John the Apostle, as well as John the Baptist, who are different biblical figures. Syriac Christians may use this name to refer to either one, which is why I had it as a separate sense. However, as RcAlex36 reminded me on the talk page for my IP address (which was before I made this account - User talk:2607:FEA8:5BE1:1A20:7D03:6A0A:3E67:13D0), the Chinese name 曜輪 could technically refer to either the Apostle or the Baptist as well, since we do not know who the historical "Bishop John" (大德曜輪, Dàdé Yàolún) was named after, the Apostle or the Baptist. — This unsigned comment was added by IohannesAndreas (talk • contribs).
- @IohannesAndreas: I see. I think I got mixed up and thought 大德曜輪 referred to one of the Biblical Johns. Then the issue is whether 曜輪 referred to John the Apostle or the Baptist ever. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 20:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: You make a very good point! It is possible that the transliteration 曜輪 is used for one of these Johns in other Nestorian texts, but I'm only aware of this one instance of it being used to translate Bishop John's Syriac name, which itself is certainly a reference to either the Apostle or the Baptist. Other Chinese Nestorian texts in which 曜輪 might appear are those written in Classical Chinese in the 'other religions' section of the Taisho Tripitaka, under the section entitled Wàijiào bù 外教部 at T2137–2144 - my Chinese is not up to par to deal with the online website that has the Taisho Tripitaka: https://www.cbeta.org/). I guess it would be best then, to remove the sense for John as a Biblical character and to leave the one sense with something like: "1. (Church of the East ) A transliteration of the Classical Syriac male given name ܝܘܚܢܢ" and leave it simply as that? What do you think? One thing I would like to add to the discussion is that I kind of think there should be some mention somewhere in the entry that this ultimately is trying to transliterate a version of the name "John," and I think we should maintain the close connections and links between this page and all the other Chinese names for John (約翰, 若望/若翰, 約安).--IohannesAndreas (talk) 20:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @IohannesAndreas: According to 景教經典, the apostle was called 瑜罕難法王, and John the Baptist was 報信法王. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 21:37, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- RFV failed for "John (biblical character)". — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 18:32, 7 June 2021 (UTC)