Talk:沙央

sa-iang vs. sa-yang

It's not clear that this is a true phonological distinction. It seems to be an etymological spelling reflecting the phonological system of Malay, rather than the phonological system of Hokkien/Min-Nan. If there is a real distinction, I would be interested to see a phonological analysis of Penang Hokkien from a reputable linguistic source. Otherwise, I propose only listing the transcription "sa-iang", along with a comment noting that the orthography "sa-yang" is used by some speakers. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 16:51, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

@Freelance Intellectual: This is not just an orthographic issue. In a narrower transcription, sa-iang would be [sa ʔiaŋ], but sa-yang would be [sa jaŋ]. Catherine Margaret Churchman's "The Eclectic Nature of Penang Hokkien Vocabulary, Its Historical Background and Implications for Character Writing" published in the Journal of Taiwanese Vernacular mentions that /j/ has entered the phonology of Penang Hokkien through loanwords like sayang and wayang. The modified Tâi-lô proposed by Persatuan Bahasa Hokkien Pulau Pinang ([1]) also includes y for /j/. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:50, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

I would be surprised to hear a mid-word glottal stop (like [sa ʔiaŋ]), except in slow and careful speech (even entering-tone glottal stops usually get dropped). I was aware that Persatuan Bahasa Hokkien Pulau Pinang propose using orthographic <y> (and <w>), but this struck me as idiosyncratic. Thanks for the reference, I'll have a look. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

After listening to some Hokkien recordings, I agree that initial glottal stops are sometimes used, but certainly not consistently. For example, I couldn't find any examples of glottal stops before possessive ê, diminutive á, or sentence-final --a. As one example, chaú-á (daughter) was pronounced without a stop. On the other hand, they seemed common at the beginning of an utterance or after a pause.

It might be worth mentioning (and apologies if you're already aware of this), that although IPA notation makes it tempting to think of glottal stops as being normal consonants, they can also just be a side-effect of phonation. Before phonation begins, the glottis has to be in *some* state. If the glottis is initially closed, this might be written as [ʔa], while if the glottis is initially open, this might be written as [a]. If the glottis is partially open, leading to turbulent airflow, this might be written as [ha] or [ɦa] (depending on the time between the start of air flow and the start of phonation).

My tentative conclusion is that an initial glottal stop in Hokkien is more likely at the beginning of an utterance or before a stressed word, which is true for many languages (for example, also including English, but not including French, where initial glottal stops are rare -- I can dig up some references if you'd like). Now, I'm quite aware that Wiktionary doesn't allow original research (and for good reason), but the use of orthographic <y-> by some Penang Hokkien speakers isn't strong enough evidence about pronunciation, especially given that it's a Malay loanword, and spelt with <y> in Malay.

I consulted the Penang Hokkien dictionaries by Tan Siew Imm and Luc de Gijzel, but unfortunately neither listed "sa-iang" (in any form). Tan Siew Imm doesn't give <y> in her list of consonants, but there is one entry beginning with <y>: "yám-sèng". This is however a highly marked term, and when I have asked Hokkien speakers about it in the past (I am not a native speaker myself), they told me it was Cantonese (to the confusion of some Cantonese speakers from Hong Kong, who were puzzled by the Hokkiens trying to say "yám-sèng" for as long as possible).

The above argument isn't conclusive, but I would be wary of accepting a phonemic contrast between [i] and [j] here. Thank you for suggesting that this isn't just an orthographic issue though, as it may have slipped my attention otherwise. I will continue to look into it. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 16:45, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@Freelance Intellectual: Thanks for your interest in investigating this. It is definitely true that in a normal utterance, sa-iang would probably have no difference from sa-yang. I think there probably isn't much difference between the way it's said in Penang Hokkien and in Singaporean Hokkien, so I wouldn't mind putting Penang for sa-iang as well. 飲勝 is definitely a clear case of /j/ word-initially, though – I would be inclined to argue that it has become part of Penang Hokkien (even though it's from Cantonese) since AFAIK native speakers of Penang Hokkien who don't speak Cantonese would use it too and it has taken on its own social meaning and usage (i.e. saying it for as long as possible - though this might be from Malaysian Cantonese speakers?). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

I see you added the Hokkien pronunciation for "飲勝" just a few weeks ago -- what a coincidence! I would also be tempted to transcribe it as "iám-sèng", but I'm not going to push it. After all, every language has phonologically weird words (like English tsk tsk or huh), particularly when they have special usages. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 11:30, 2 January 2019 (UTC)