Talk:羯諦羯諦波羅羯諦波羅僧羯諦菩提薩婆訶

RFV discussion: November 2020–April 2022

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羯諦羯諦波羅羯諦波羅僧羯諦菩提薩婆訶

Is this used outside of the Heart Sutra? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:45, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Pinging @Poketalker, who made the entry. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:34, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: what makes it a requirement of a usage outside of the Buddhist scripture in question? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 02:20, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Poketalker: WT:ATTEST. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: in this case, this falls under the "widespread use" clause, as some Buddhist sects in Japan still chant the Heart Sutra in their congregations with these exact series of Chinese characters, though is a transliteration from its ancient Sanskrit original. Curious to why someone with a ja-0 put the RFV template, rather than an editor specializing in the Japanese language (other than me). ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 03:09, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Poketalker: Does this mean that any word in other commonly read texts, like the Christian Bible, would be fair game for inclusion, even if the Bible is the only place where the word has been attested? I think widespread use still needs to be use in independent sources, even if those sources may not qualify as durably archived. Also, I brought this to RFV because the Chinese entry 揭諦揭諦波羅揭諦波羅僧揭諦菩提薩婆訶 was deleted by RFV. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: this one is enough. It falls outside the Heart Sutra (in a way), and is an entry in the dictionary linked. A term in Koine Greek, English, or another language in translation is appreciated if you can provide me an example. Back to the gate gate paragate, this is a Japanese term probably transmitted by a Chinese intermediary, the transliterations may vary by characters used. This is confusing, what exactly are you looking for: manuscripts of the transliteration (check the NDL), Buddhist sutra book, scholarly Buddhist... anything? Any thoughts, other Japanese editors? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 01:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Poketalker: I'm looking for two other uses (not mentions) in any Japanese text independent of the Heart Sutra. The dictionary you linked is a mention in a non-Japanese text, so it would not count. An example of something from the Christian Bible that would probably not pass WT:CFI would be a name like 法路 (Phallu in English) found in the Chinese Union Version of the Bible. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Poketalker, Eirikr, how should we deal with this? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I yield/give up. Still don't get why this does not need mention here... transliteration nonetheless. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 07:24, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@Poketalker: Just to be clear, it's not about not allowing this term to be included because of the term's nature (which would be an RFD issue), but it's that this term does not seem to have attestation outside of one work AFAIK. If there is enough attestation outside of the Heart Sutra, I would be happy to have this included, but the fact that no such attestation has been found would make it a hapax, which we usually would not include for WT:WDL if I'm not mistaken. (Pinging @Eirikr again to see if they would like to chime in.) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

• I'm a bit puzzled how to handle this.

As a string of sounds, ぎゃていぎゃていはらぎゃていはらそうぎゃていぼじそわか (gyateigyateiharagyateiharasōgyateibojisowaka) doesn't seem to have any specific meaning as Japanese other than its direct context as part of the Heart Sutra.

Since this is in some ways an inherently non-Japanese string (in terms of meaning), I wouldn't expect it to show up in Japanese texts anywhere other than contexts related to the Heart Sutra.

I'm honestly surprised that Chinese 法路 (Pallu) is not considered entry-worthy, even though it's included in such a well-known text as the Bible. Likewise for this Japanese term.

I'm more accustomed to hapax legomenon referring to a term that is only ever encountered once, not just in a single work. Be that as it may, if Japanese 羯諦羯諦波羅羯諦波羅僧羯諦菩提薩婆訶 (gyatei gyatei haragyatei harasōgyatei boji sowaka) is such a hapax (presumably only occurring at the end of the sutra?), then it would ostensibly fail to meet CFI. That said, it does seem to appear elsewhere: google books:"羯諦羯諦波羅羯諦波羅僧羯諦菩提薩婆訶" "は" (adding the "は" to filter for Japanese) nets 342 apparent hits. Many of these have no preview, but at least some of the ones that do have previews seem like they might be more than just mentions. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:02, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Eirikr: Sorry for the late reply. 法路 would not be entry worthy if it only appears in the Bible and not elsewhere. I'm surprised that you'd be surprised by this. WT:CFI is pretty clear about having three independent attestations for well-documented languages. If you are able to find three independent uses of 羯諦羯諦波羅羯諦波羅僧羯諦菩提薩婆訶 in Japanese, i.e., the Heart Sutra plus two other uses (not mentions) that are not directly quoting the Heart Sutra, then it would pass CFI. Otherwise, just being in a well-known text would not make it CFI-compliant. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:08, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

RFV failed. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:09, 19 April 2022 (UTC)