Talk:아귀
Latest comment: 4 months ago by Ebizur in topic Removing RFEs without any edit comment or other discussion
Removing RFEs without any edit comment or other discussion[edit]
@Ebizur, my earlier reversion of your removal of the RFE was not because I think you are "required to leave any groundless speculation on Wiktionary merely because it has been posted in the form of a question". Rather, I reverted you because you did nothing to address the question in any way, and you did not even leave an edit comment explaining your action. This is bad form, as this is an antagonistic response to questions.
If you had entered an edit comment earlier, simply stating "no such cognates in Korean for 'open'", that would have sufficed. As it is, I am happy with your explanation that there are no phonologically similar cognates in Korean for "open".
Do you have any insight into the apparent phonological similarities of the various Korean words related to "an opening": agari, agami, agung'i? All of these appear to be semantically related to 아귀#Etymology_1, "angle; slit; curved-in part of a bow". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- Eirikr, thank you for your input.
- As you may be aware, the verb /ak-/ in Japanese also has a sense "to become empty." The semantic equivalent to that sense in Korean would be intransitive /pi-/ (비다) or transitive (equivalent to Japanese /ake-/) /piu-/ (비우다). Again, there is no phonological similarity between the Japanese forms and the semantically equivalent Korean forms.
- Regarding Korean /akari/, /akami/, /akuŋi/, /akuj/, etc., they are most likely related to Korean */ek-/ as in /ɤkɨs-na-/ [ɤkɨnna-] "to be dislocated, to get out of joint, to get out of step; to run counter to, to be contrary (to), to go against; to go wrong, to go awry, to be out of line; to be estranged (from), to have a falling out (with a person); to miss (each other when trying to meet at an appointed date, time, and place), to fail to come together as planned; to contradict, not to match up": e.g. 그는 하품을 하다가 턱뼈가 어긋났다 kɨ-nɨn hapʰum-ɨl ha-taka tʰɤk-ppjɤ-ka ɤkɨs-na-ss-ta "He dislocated his jaw while yawning." Another verb derived from the same root is Korean /ɤkɨrɤʨi-/ (어그러지다): e.g. tʰakʨa tari hana-ka ɤkɨrɤʨj-ɤss-ta "One of the legs of the table slipped out of joint." In the Korean language, /a/ often alternates with */e/ > /ɤ/ to indicate a different nuance of meaning; it is a sort of sound symbolism. Therefore, the hypothetical root should really be represented as */ek-/ ~ */ak-/ "not to fit/come together perfectly; to have a gap left." Ebizur (talk) 21:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- Very interesting, thank you for that analysis. I seem to recall reading in the past that Korean has a kind of vowel harmony, with so-called "yang" and "yin" vowels appearing in word pairs, but I forget the semantic distinctions that these represent. Thanks again! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- I would say that, in general, the yin/"shady"/"feminine" variants (the forms with */e/ > /ɤ/) tend to be imbued with a "nastier," "murkier," "more negative" nuance, whereas the yang/"sunny"/"masculine" variants (the forms with /a/) tend to be imbued with a "nicer," "clearer," or "more positive" nuance, but the precise difference in nuance really depends on the particular word pair under consideration. For many such word pairs, each variant has become lexicalized with a particular meaning, and the difference between these meanings does not necessarily follow any particular pattern. Most relevant to our discussion here would be the pair /ɤkuj/ ("the mouth (of a river); the entrance (of a village); [formerly] the mouth or jaw (e.g. in reference to lockjaw, a common symptom of tetanus)") ~ /akuj/ ("the fit (of a door to a frame, etc.); [when doing math] the small numbers (e.g. after a decimal point), the part of a number that one might round up or down; a corner (of the mouth); a slit (in the side of a coat or a petticoat); the place on a seed from which a sprout or a place on a stem from which a new shoot may spring forth; the indented part of a bow, on which the handgrip is located"); these forms should be yin/yang variants of a single etymon, but each of the variants has been lexicalized with different meanings, and there is not necessarily a clear explanation for why any particular meaning has been associated with either variant. One also might note the likelihood of semantic contamination at the root of some senses; the sense of "anglerfish, monkfish" plausibly may have been influenced by phonological similarity to Sino-Korean 餓鬼 /a:kuj/ ("preta, hungry ghosts/demons/devils") along with the visual similarity (monstrousness, ugliness, large mouth and toothiness and therefore perceived voraciousness) of these fish and these demons of Buddhist tradition, and senses related to a person's speech may have been influenced by Sino-Korean 語句 /ɤ:ku/ ("a word, a phrase; locution"). Ebizur (talk) 00:09, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, hmm, very interesting again and much appreciated. Much for me to think about! Thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- Korean sound symbolism and onomatopoeia are quite interesting. One typical pattern of difference between the "yang" variants and the "yin" variants is that the former often carry a nuance of being "smaller" in some way, whereas the latter often carry a nuance of being "larger" in some way. For example, in connection with /ak-/ ~ */ek-/:
- akiʨak-akiʨak: an adverb describing the manner of a small body moving its arms and legs awkwardly and slowly walking; an adverb describing the manner of putting food in one's mouth and chewing it slowly
- ɤkiʨɤk-ɤkiʨɤk: walking slowly with unnatural, large movements of the limbs, an adverb describing the manner of walking with a goose step; an adverb describing the manner of filling one's mouth with food and chewing it slowly
- akɨs-akɨs [a.kɨ.ta.kɨt]: an adverb describing the appearance of each piece of an object not fitting together, with the result that the ends are slightly misaligned; an adverb describing the weight, volume, length, etc. of an object appearing to be slightly off certain standards; (also ɔkɨs-ɔkɨs) [in Jeju dialect] an adverb describing the manner of lifting an object up fully and relocating it with ease
- ɤkɨs-ɤkɨs [ɤ.kɨ.tɤ.kɨt]: an adverb describing the appearance of each piece of an object not fitting together, with the result that the ends are misaligned; an adverb describing the appearance of an object whose weight, volume, length, etc. deviate from certain standards
- Ebizur (talk) 04:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, hmm, very interesting again and much appreciated. Much for me to think about! Thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- I would say that, in general, the yin/"shady"/"feminine" variants (the forms with */e/ > /ɤ/) tend to be imbued with a "nastier," "murkier," "more negative" nuance, whereas the yang/"sunny"/"masculine" variants (the forms with /a/) tend to be imbued with a "nicer," "clearer," or "more positive" nuance, but the precise difference in nuance really depends on the particular word pair under consideration. For many such word pairs, each variant has become lexicalized with a particular meaning, and the difference between these meanings does not necessarily follow any particular pattern. Most relevant to our discussion here would be the pair /ɤkuj/ ("the mouth (of a river); the entrance (of a village); [formerly] the mouth or jaw (e.g. in reference to lockjaw, a common symptom of tetanus)") ~ /akuj/ ("the fit (of a door to a frame, etc.); [when doing math] the small numbers (e.g. after a decimal point), the part of a number that one might round up or down; a corner (of the mouth); a slit (in the side of a coat or a petticoat); the place on a seed from which a sprout or a place on a stem from which a new shoot may spring forth; the indented part of a bow, on which the handgrip is located"); these forms should be yin/yang variants of a single etymon, but each of the variants has been lexicalized with different meanings, and there is not necessarily a clear explanation for why any particular meaning has been associated with either variant. One also might note the likelihood of semantic contamination at the root of some senses; the sense of "anglerfish, monkfish" plausibly may have been influenced by phonological similarity to Sino-Korean 餓鬼 /a:kuj/ ("preta, hungry ghosts/demons/devils") along with the visual similarity (monstrousness, ugliness, large mouth and toothiness and therefore perceived voraciousness) of these fish and these demons of Buddhist tradition, and senses related to a person's speech may have been influenced by Sino-Korean 語句 /ɤ:ku/ ("a word, a phrase; locution"). Ebizur (talk) 00:09, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- Very interesting, thank you for that analysis. I seem to recall reading in the past that Korean has a kind of vowel harmony, with so-called "yang" and "yin" vowels appearing in word pairs, but I forget the semantic distinctions that these represent. Thanks again! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)