Talk:Eadbhard

RFV discussion

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English? Looks like a misspelling of Éadbhard.--Makaokalani 16:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Names aren't misspellings; they're just names. Eadbhard O'Callaghan ([1][2], etc.) signs his publications with that spelling, though he's the only person I can find in Google Books who does. It's common in baby books ([3], [4], etc.), and I can find one historical reference to a Sir Eadbhard[5] (which may be transliteration of the original name) and a snippet from The Journal of the Irish Dental Association [6] mentioning one Dr. Eadbhard S. M. O'Brien-... as a member.--Prosfilaes 19:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• Clearly widespread use. --Yair rand (talk) 08:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
• Definitly widespread use.--Dmol 10:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I was having trouble finding three uses that I were sure passed WT:CFI; outside (admittedly a number of mentions of) Eadbhard O'Callaghan, basically all I was finding were baby books, so I don't know how you can say clearly widespread use.--Prosfilaes 20:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Yeah, bgc doesn't seem to show much for this. Alas, the Office for National Statistics only lists (online) the top 100 boys' names (in England and Wales) for the years it has them, but this is not there (with either spelling) for 1904, 1914, 1924, 1934, 1944, 1954, 1964, 1974, 1984, 1994, 1999, 2007, 2008, or 2009. The Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency has lists of the 100 most popular boys' names for each year from 2000 through 2009, none of which has this (with either spelling). Of course, many popular names aren't among the top 100. (The best I could find for Ireland is [7], which doesn't help.)​—msh210℠ (talk) 20:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
      • [8] Ancestry.com finds 6 hits in England, but the site makes no difference between E and É. Until quite recently, an Irish-speaking person called Éadbhard at home would have signed his name Edward. What I really meant to ask is this: since every foreign name with diacritical marks will automatically be spelled without them in English, mostly for typographical reasons, but also for laziness and ignorance, should we record and define all these misspellings? If you search for Eadbhard, the search box will suggest Éadbhard. Isn't that enough? People look up names in dictionaries to see how they are spelled correctly. An accurate definition of Eadbhard would be "An English misspelling or rendering of the Irish male given name Éadbhard, which in turn is an Irish rendering of English Edward". It doesn't sound quite sane. --Makaokalani 15:58, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
        • If Eadbhard is a name given by English speakers to their children, we should certainly keep it. Lots of words have history; that doesn't mean the definition for okej is "A Swedish misspelling or rendering of the English okay". If it is used in English by people as their name, as in the case of Eadbhard O'Callaghan, then there is a case for keeping it, since his name in English is not Éadbhard.
        • While we're on the subject of laziness and ignorance, let me note the city whose proper name is İstanbul (note the dot) is called, not only by the English, but also the French, Hungarians, Italians, all nations that one might presume would care about diacritical marks, Istanbul. The Irish, of course, call it Iostanbúl, in complete disrespect for the original name. A little tolerance for other's traditions goes a long way.--Prosfilaes 22:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
          • Okej is a genuine Swedish word with a meaning. Istanbul is the correct English name for a well-known city; it has a different name in each language. But human beings - unless they are famous historical persons like Charlemagne - have just one name: the one their parents gave them, in their mother tongue. It's a pity if they have to misspell it because computers can't handle it. The computers should be fixed. I agree that if Eadbhard is a name given by (several) English speakers to their children, we should keep it. But we don't know Eadbhard O'Callaghan's mother tongue, or how he spells his name with a pen. English baby name books are worthless references in my opinion. I do appreciate the trouble you are taking with this entry. --Makaokalani 11:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC
          • I did not mean that English-speakers are particularly lazy or ignorant - people in all countries show a lack of respect for foreigners' names.--Makaokalani 12:10, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
            • Human beings frequently don't go by the name their parents gave them, and people change their names for other cultures frequently; I've read several people who use a Chinese name in China, instead of having the Chinese butcher their English name.
            • We don't know how Eadbhard O'Callaghan writes his name with pen, but as with most dictionaries, we pay much more attention to the printed form of language then the handwritten one. Given the number of sources and the type, I'm confident that when Eadbhard O'Callaghan sends in a paper to be published, he writes his name as Eadbhard. (I am less confident that the Eadbhard in The Journal of the Irish Dental Association spells his name that way.) Baby name books are like other dictionaries; they don't use the name and thus don't count for CFI.
            • I wish I knew what standard we have used in the past for names. WT:CFI says names are "subject to the same criteria for inclusion as any other words." Taking Eadbhard O'Callaghan as one use and ignoring the baby books, I could claim three uses in running English text, just barely. It doesn't quite seem reasonable, though.--Prosfilaes 00:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This should not be considered a misspelling if that is the way people choose to write it for themselves or their children. Many Irish names are dropping diacritical marks and apostrophes (as I do myself) mainy because many computer systems will not handle them. Eg, no airline computer will work with them, most online order systems will also reject any such marks, so it's easier to drop them altogether. The entry should be listed as an alternative spelling, not a mistake. I can think of are Sile as another example, I'm sure there's many more.--Dmol 23:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Following on from my earlier comment about it being common to remove the fada from Irish names, I have noticed the following, and am sure there are more. Micheal, Sean, Cairan, Tomas, Seamus, Donal, Siobhan, Aine, Maire, Una, Caitlin, and Roisin. Is it the intention that all of these should be deleted as they are not "correct" in their original form.--Dmol 12:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Most of these names seem easy to verify as English. Sean is a popular English name. Irish origin of Tomas may be difficult to prove since it's a name in several languages. (Cairan obviously a typo for Ciaran). Notice that all these names are easy to spell in English. "Eadbhard" might be less attractive to English-speaking parents, more likely to be Anglicised in a form like Audie. If an Éadbhard legally changes his name into Edward, his name becomes English of course. But if he spells it Eadbhard just to in order to be accepted by airlines, or in passports and driver's licenses, it seems more complex. You might say he is a disguised Éadbhard hoping for the computers to be fixed.

I don't remember any RFV discussion about misspelled/transliterated given names. There is Wiktionary:About given names and surnames and for example Talk:Blue. Among nearly seven billion of us, having a name shared by 3 individuals does not seem a good enough CFI, in the absence of citations. Immigrants, like members of minority languages and conquered nations, are often forced to adopt names in languages they don't know. And dropping diacritical signs is so predictable that making entries for such spellings seems like a waste of time.--Makaokalani 12:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Even if merely finding three different people with this name suffices, we haven't found such. (O'Callaghan and the dentist O'Brien seem to be the only ones.) I'd declare this failed, except that two editors have claimed clearly widespread use. I mean, I don't agree with them, but I'm looking for a second opinion before closing this as failed.​—msh210℠ (talk) 18:06, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

RFV failed, entry deleted (per msh210). —Ruakh_TALK 23:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)