Talk:Tamil religion

RFD discussion: May 2021–March 2022

The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.

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Tamil religion

Does not appear to be lexicalized.--Tibidibi (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Delete, the definition is also rather grandiose. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 17:17, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Don't Delete, the definition is correct and sources are : https://tamilreligion.org/home and https://books.google.com/books?id=JFRRl1vv0kwC&pg=PA393 . Rather than deleting we can do some corrections where it is needed. VelKadamban (talk) 07:52, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The first of those links isn't durably archived. The second doesn't seem to use the phrase "Tamil religion" anywhere, and where it does discuss the religion of the Tamils says it's Hinduism, so it's not referring to the pre-Hindu ancestor and nature worship. If anyone can find durably archived sources that do call the pre-Hindu relgion "Tamil religion" rather than using that phrase simply to mean "the religion(s) of the Tamils" (most of whom are Hindu, and most of the rest of whom are either Christian or Muslim), then keep. But otherwise delete. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Mahāgaja Dude, south African Tamils refer their religion as Tamil and Not Hindu... their religion is Tamil, also that first link is website of Tamil religion in Malaysia VelKadamban (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I'd say that a Tamil religion referring to a pre-Hindu religion would be equally SOP. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 14:52, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

It's either SoP or doesn't actually exist. Delete SemperBlotto (talk) 09:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

It actually Exist! sources are : https://tamilreligion.org/home and https://books.google.com/books?id=JFRRl1vv0kwC&pg=PA393 South African Tamils refer their religion as Tamil and Not Hindu... their religion is Tamil, also that first link is website of Tamil religion in Malaysia VelKadamban (talk) 12:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

It has already been pointed out to you that the destination of the first link is not durable, and worryingly it is also nakedly promotional, and the linked book discusses a Tamil form of Hinduism, so that does not support the definition. You should read the sources that you provide critically and adhere to the criteria laid out at WT:CFI when you offer evidence. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 14:52, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Sir, I'm Trying to say that Tamil Diaspora people Refer their Religion as Tamil. And also Hinduism is Full of Sanskrit, And it is totally wrong to make Tamil as a form of Hinduism, The worship of Tamils and Hindus differs a lot. The first like is not for any promotion, i shared that link because that link is official website of Tamil religion in Malaysia. Try to understand that Hindu Religion and Tamil Religion is Different and even i'm a Native Tamilian. So i Now about that! Still many Tamils follow Non-Hindu (Non-Sanskrit) religious Worship, which is Tamil worship as Tamil Religion. This Tamil religious worship is different from Hinduism and Many Tamil Diaspora people Follows Tamil Religion (Tamilism). So this phrase Tamil Religion should not be deleted from Wiktionary. Thank You! VelKadamban (talk) 15:55, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@VelKadamban I am not set on the view that all indigenous Tamil religion is Hindu, because it is a subject about which I have little knowledge. But the durable attestations of the phrase "Tamil religion" chiefly seem to refer to a specifically Tamil variety of Hinduism, regardless of the facts on the ground, or they are too vague to decide. At Wiktionary we are concerned with words and phrases as they are attested in durable (lastingly archived) use, not with an accurate reporting of cultural reality; that is something for journalistic reporting and encyclopaedias. Besides, even if Tamil religion were attestable as a term denoting a religious tradition distinct from Hinduism, unlike Tamilism it would be still unidiomatic. Also, while I appreciate that you are being polite and I don't give a rat's arse about pronouns, I would actually prefer not to be referred to as "sir". ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 17:52, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo Ok Dude! Thank You! I Understood! Do According to Our Wiktionary Policy. Can you clear me a Doubt, after i'm Giving proper source (Which says Tamil religion refers to Religion that differ from Hinduism) can i add the Phrase "Tamil Religion" to Wiktionary back later? Have a Good Day! VelKadamban (talk) 04:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Here at Wiktionary we do not go by what sources say about what a term means, but by the meaning a term appears to have as it is used – preferably in a context where the speaker does not feel a need to explain the term, but assumes their audience is familiar with it.  --Lambiam 11:22, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@SemperBlotto: could you please ascertain whether you're convinced this does exist, per below? If so, do you still feel it's sum of parts? DAVilla 14:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Keep. Looking through Google Books I see two kinds of usage. Half of it is talking about any religion from the region, especially in historical context, which would be sum of parts:

1. these cults have deep Dravidian roots and may be considered as an expression of and indigenious [sic] Tamil religion
2. [George Uglow Pope] boldly asserted that Saiva Siddhanta was an exclusively Tamil religion

But the other half appear to be talking about a very specific group of religious beliefs:

1. The ‘Tamil’ religion is a term and a reality which is peculiar to Mauritius and which has no counterpart in India, even in the State of Tamil Nadu. The Tamils have had a long religious history in the island.
2. An interesting aspect of the religious attitude of the Hindu Tamil diaspora in many countries is their attempt to distinguish their religion from Brahminical [sic] Hinduism. They are proud to call their religion ‘Tamil Religion’. This has been observed by many historians.
3. I have already mentioned the organizational ability of a community, contributes to a large extent to the maintenance of their language and culture. One can notice regular organization cultural functions among the Tamils: Valluvar day, Tamil New Year, Annual function of the Tamil Federation, Baradhivar centenary, etc. […] The religion, mentioned as “Tamil religion” by the Mauritian Tamils, seems to be one of the most important signs of Tamil identity. It is quite obvious that the Tamil language enjoys a privileged place in religious ceremonies.

Wikipeda notes that "Many emigrant Tamils retain elements of a cultural, linguistic, and religious tradition that predates the Christian era." This resonates with the analogous description of diaspora above. But the Wikipedia article then goes on to muddle this concept with the wide variety of religious beliefs held by those in Tamil Nadu today.

In short, the Tamil religion is a real, distinct identity noted by anthropologists but confused with the SoP definition many here wish to delete it for. It is not the religion of the people of Tamil Nadu, but one that originated there. DAVilla 20:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Keep Appears to be lexicalised. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 03:39, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sonofcawdrey In what way does this "appear to be lexicalised"? Have you found any lemmings for this phrase? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

From my reading of the cites on Google Books, etc., it seems that "Tamil religion" has a specific meaning that is not really deducible from its parts. Not sure what lemmings have to do with it. - Sonofcawdrey (talk) 01:37, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Delete, does not appear to be lexicalised. PUC – 14:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Delete, ’tis not dictionary stuff. Keeping this would set a precedence for creating thousands of entries for [ETHNICITY] religion. (On a different note, ‘Hinduism’ is a concept created by European colonialists who failed to understand that there are multiple folk/ethnic religions—all pre-Aryan—throughout the Subcontinent, and many of these being influenced by the Vedic religion to varying degrees. And I guess the Tamil religion may have different variations, caste-wise I suppose.) ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 18:30, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Keep. AG202 (talk) 22:07, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Delete. I have no argument about the existence of the thing denoted by the phrase "Tamil religion". Rather, from all I have seen, this is SOP as "Tamil" + "religion", i.e. "that religion which is of the Tamil variety". Easily understandable from its constituent nouns. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:41, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Delete in favor of a definition at Tamil. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 14:12, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Delete - this word is a sum of its parts. --Rishabhbhat (talk) 12:01, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

• RFD-deleted 9–4. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 21:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

  Hmmm I'm a bit confused as to how this would work, but I noticed that an IP updated the second def and added a third one after most of the folks here had voted, so would the deletion apply to the new definitions as well? Or how would that work exactly? AG202 (talk) 22:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

  All these 3 defs are really the same, it’s just that they’ve been worded differently by the IP in bad faith, to give the impression of different senses. As I remarked above, an ethnic-based folk religion in the Indian Subcontinent could have different variations (’cause non-mainstream religions aren’t standardised beliefs: Hinduism in contrast is more of a politically standardised religion; all the same the term Hinduism is also used to include the same folk religions as ‘folk Hinduism’). At any rate, the editors voted to delete the *entry* as SoP (Tamil + religion) and non-lexicalized, and thus the RFD deletion pertains to the entire entry. If you feel there are multiple real definitions, you could do your own research, but don’t trust promotional defs added by IPs. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 09:55, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

  By the way, see the first definition of Tamilism, which looks apt. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 10:05, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for the response, that makes sense. AG202 (talk) 10:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)