Talk:Wikiwörterbuche
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User 84.161.36.12 placed the rfv template and forgot to add a section to this discussion page. Their comment: "Wikiwörterbuch" exists and is attestable, but this form seems to be unattestable and made up. --MaEr (talk) 06:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
- As to the dative singular forms ending with -e I′ll quote in the following from a dictionary on the correct usage of German (“Duden, Richtiges und gutes Deutsch”):
- „Die Endung -e im Dativ Singular starker Maskulina und Neutra ([…]) ist nicht mehr erforderlich und wird auch nur selten gesetzt. In festen Redewendungen und formelhaften Verbindungen hat sie sich noch ziemlich fest gehalten: im Grunde genommen, zu Pferde sitzen, zu Kreuze kriechen, im Zuge sein, zu Buche schlagen u. Ä. Fast immer ohne -e stehen Substantive, die auf Diphthong enden (dem Bau, dem Ei), und mehrsilbige Substantive, die nicht auf der letzten Silbe betont werden (dem Frühling, dem Ausflug). Immer ohne -e stehen Substantive auf -en, -em, -el, -er (dem Garten, dem Atem, dem Gürtel, dem Lehrer), Substantive, die auf Vokal enden (dem Hurra, dem Schnee), die Kurzformen der Himmelsrichtungen und der danach benannten Winde (von Nord nach Süd, vom West getrieben), Stoffsubstantive, die ohne Artikel stehen und von einer Präposition abhängen (aus Holz, in Öl), und stark flektierte Fremdwörter (dem Hotel). In den übrigen Fällen, in denen das -e fakultativ ist, hängt seine Setzung vom Satzrhythmus bzw. vom rhythmischen Gefühl des Schreibers oder Sprechers ab: dem Kind[e], im Haus[e], in seinem Sinn[e], auf demselben Weg[e], auf dem Land[e], im Raum[e].“(Dudenredaktion, unter Mitwirkung von Peter Eisenberg und Jan Georg Schneider (ed.): Duden, Richtiges und gutes Deutsch. Das Wörterbuch der sprachlichen Zweifelsfälle. In: Der Duden in zwölf Bänden. volume 9, 7th, completely revised edition, Dudenverlag, Mannheim 2011, →ISBN (CD-ROM-edition), headword »Dativ-e«.)
- “The ending -e in the dative singular [form] of strong masculine and strong neuter nouns ([…]) is not required anymore and is only used rarely. In fixed idioms and formulaic collocations it is still being used: [examples] etc. Nouns ending with a diphthong ([examples]) and polysyllabic nouns that are not stressed on the last syllable ([examples]) almost always do not take a dative singular -e. Nouns ending with -en, -em, -el, -er ([examples]), nouns ending with a vowel ([examples]), short forms of nouns indicating directions and of nouns of the winds named after them ([examples]), nouns denoting materials that are used without article and that depend on a preposition ([examples]), and strong declined borrowed words ([example]) always do not take a dative singular -e. In the remaining cases in which the dative singular -e is optional, the putting [of the -e] depend on the phrasal rhythm and the writer′s or speaker′s rhythmical sense, respectively: [examples].”
- „Die Endung -e im Dativ Singular starker Maskulina und Neutra ([…]) ist nicht mehr erforderlich und wird auch nur selten gesetzt. In festen Redewendungen und formelhaften Verbindungen hat sie sich noch ziemlich fest gehalten: im Grunde genommen, zu Pferde sitzen, zu Kreuze kriechen, im Zuge sein, zu Buche schlagen u. Ä. Fast immer ohne -e stehen Substantive, die auf Diphthong enden (dem Bau, dem Ei), und mehrsilbige Substantive, die nicht auf der letzten Silbe betont werden (dem Frühling, dem Ausflug). Immer ohne -e stehen Substantive auf -en, -em, -el, -er (dem Garten, dem Atem, dem Gürtel, dem Lehrer), Substantive, die auf Vokal enden (dem Hurra, dem Schnee), die Kurzformen der Himmelsrichtungen und der danach benannten Winde (von Nord nach Süd, vom West getrieben), Stoffsubstantive, die ohne Artikel stehen und von einer Präposition abhängen (aus Holz, in Öl), und stark flektierte Fremdwörter (dem Hotel). In den übrigen Fällen, in denen das -e fakultativ ist, hängt seine Setzung vom Satzrhythmus bzw. vom rhythmischen Gefühl des Schreibers oder Sprechers ab: dem Kind[e], im Haus[e], in seinem Sinn[e], auf demselben Weg[e], auf dem Land[e], im Raum[e].“(Dudenredaktion, unter Mitwirkung von Peter Eisenberg und Jan Georg Schneider (ed.): Duden, Richtiges und gutes Deutsch. Das Wörterbuch der sprachlichen Zweifelsfälle. In: Der Duden in zwölf Bänden. volume 9, 7th, completely revised edition, Dudenverlag, Mannheim 2011, →ISBN (CD-ROM-edition), headword »Dativ-e«.)
- So to mark such forms as “archaic” in general is a bit misleading since it strictly depends on the noun whether it can take an -e or not. The form -buche in this specific case is allowed according to the official regulations above-mentioned. — Best wishes, Caligari ƆɐƀïиϠႵ 17:37, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- "Allowed", yes, but "almost always without -e" since Wikiwörterbuch is a polysyllabic noun that is not stressed on the last syllable, like Frühling or Ausflug. And if this form, which even "by the rules" is hardly expected to exist, is also unattested in actual usage, it should be deleted. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:05, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Aɴɢʀ, thanks. Okay, a deletion is fine with me. Since I'm not familiar with this wiktionary, can you tell me where the best place is to ask for corrections in the German declination/conjugation templates? On each talk page of the template or in the Beer parlour or elsewhere? As I mentioned above, marking the dative singular -e as generally "archaic" is misleading. That need to be changed. I found also some other issues that I would like to address with regards to these templates. — Best wishes, Caligari ƆɐƀïиϠႵ 14:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'd say the Beer parlor at first, since the talk pages of the templates may not be being watched by everyone interested in the issue. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks. — Caligari ƆɐƀïиϠႵ 15:36, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Aɴɢʀ, thanks. Okay, a deletion is fine with me. Since I'm not familiar with this wiktionary, can you tell me where the best place is to ask for corrections in the German declination/conjugation templates? On each talk page of the template or in the Beer parlour or elsewhere? As I mentioned above, marking the dative singular -e as generally "archaic" is misleading. That need to be changed. I found also some other issues that I would like to address with regards to these templates. — Best wishes, Caligari ƆɐƀïиϠႵ 14:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- "Allowed", yes, but "almost always without -e" since Wikiwörterbuch is a polysyllabic noun that is not stressed on the last syllable, like Frühling or Ausflug. And if this form, which even "by the rules" is hardly expected to exist, is also unattested in actual usage, it should be deleted. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:05, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:05, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
So Wikiwörterbuch needs a clean-up, as it still mentions dative singular "dem Wikiwörterbuche".
Maybe the declension template should be changed, getting a parameter like "dat-sg" with options like "only without e" (short maybe -e), "with e" (short maybe +e), "with e, but uncommon nowadays" (short maybe +eu or simply e).