Talk:cavern

Request for verification

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

---

grotto

cave

cavern

This may not be an overly exciting topic, but according to our entries grotto is a small cave and covern a large cave. [www.dictionary.com] is less explicit saying that grotto and cavern can be synonymous. Which is right? --Hekaheka 07:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

From OED it seems like grotto being a hyponym of cavern:

• grotto: 1. A cave or cavern, esp. one which is picturesque, or which forms an agreeable retreat. 2. An excavation or structure made to imitate a rocky cave, often adorned with shell-work, etc., and serving as a place of recreation or a cool retreat.
• cavern: A hollow place under ground; a subterranean (or submarine) cavity; a cave.

However, OALD just says (like our entries) "a small cave, esp one that has been made artificially" for grotto and "a cave, especially a large one" for cavern. What seems certain is that cavern has wider usage. --Duncan 14:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

COCA counts: (deprecated template usage) cave 6,434; (deprecated template usage) cavern 830; (deprecated template usage) grotto 381.

I think both are right. Synonyms are rarely exact. DCDuring TALK 15:13, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I've added a sense to grotto of - A Marian shrine, usually built in a cavern-like structure- which is the common meaning of the term in Ireland. I'm not sure if this is the only place it is used this way, and haven't tagged it with Ireland yet. Anyone know if this meaning is used elsewere. --Dmol 01:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Irish sense certainly understood in rest of UK, though we would probably associate it with Ireland. Cave is a general term. Cavern implies large. Grotto implies small or man-made. Dbfirs 07:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

"grottoes" would be a recognised term especially among Roman Catholics. See w:Grotto? DCDuring TALK 19:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Striking as irrelevant to RFV: attestation of a term or a sense is not being sought in this request, AFAICS, only a clarification or refinement of imperfect definitions. The request is stale and it should not lead to the deletion of "grotto", "cave", and "cavern". It seems to have been a rfv rather than rfv-sense. The three entries have not been marked using "rfv", so no removal of "rfv" from them is needed. --Dan Polansky 13:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)