Talk:mouton enragé

Tea room discussion

Note: the below discussion was moved from the Wiktionary:Tea room.

Of our three quotations, one is saying that a person is like a mouton enragé (italicized), and another is saying that a person might remind us of a mouton enragé (italicized); and for good measure, the headword is italicized in the third quotation as well. Overall, it seems like mouton enragé doesn't actually mean “A normally peaceful person who has become suddenly and uncharacteristically angry”, but rather, “A French phrase meaning ‘angry sheep’; used in metaphors and similes to describe normally peaceful people who have become suddenly and uncharacteristically angry.”

However, we only have three quotations, so it's possible that they're not very representative. Does anyone know better?

—Ruakh_TALK 18:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This source [1] says it has been adopted into English. It's also used attributively in Harper's New Monthly Magazine:

• 1896 — William Black, "Briseis", chapter V, Harper's Magazine, vol. XCII, p.231

  And meanwhile young Gordon, who had been eying with a vague curiosity this mouton-enragé sort of creature, and who was not much interested in his shop-talk, had been inwardly saying to himself "My fat friend, it would do you a world of good if you were made to crawl six miles up the Corrieara burn with a rifle in your hand. And perhaps two or three days starvation wouldn't do you much harm either."

I also find this 1826 quote:

• 1826 — James S. Buckingham (e.d), "Summary of the latest intelligence from India and other countries of the East", The Oriental Herald and Journal of General Literature, vol. 9, p 343.

  But our " mouton enragé " pursues a different course. He rushes blindfolded into a Burmese war, ana creeps with the utmost circumspection to the siege of Bhurtpore.

It is placed in quotes, not italics, but no explanation is given for the meaning. This predates the 1829 French article "Le Mouton Enragé" often cited as introducing the word into English; it seems that article merely popularized the term.

I also find:

• 1857 — George Gilfillan, Galleries of Literary Portraits, page 270

  This mildness of tone comports with his character (a man of timid and gentale temper, foaming and thundering in the pulpit, may well remind us, as well as the French, of a mouton enragé)

So the term has been used in English contexts for a long time, even if often italicized. --EncycloPetey 18:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record, it seems the nickname was originally attributed to w:Nicolas de Condorcet. Circeus 19:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's not used in English contexts; and I have no problem with this sort of word appearing under an ==English== header provided everything is made clear. My question is entirely about the meaning of the term; in most of the cites, it seems to mean not "a person who blah-blah-blahs", but rather "[French] an angry sheep [used in similes and metaphors for people who blah-blah-blah]". It's like how "sore thumb" doesn't mean "someone who sticks out"; rather, it's a stock example of something that sticks out, so that we tend to say that someone sticks out "like a sore thumb". (Do you see what I mean?) So I think the definition needs to be rewritten a bit. —Ruakh_TALK 23:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the quotations I've cited above support the existing definition. That's not to say that some of the other quotes may require the definition to be expanded or another sense added, but the first two at least mean a normally quiet person and not a sheep. --EncycloPetey 23:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. I don't think that in the first quotation it does mean a kind of person, else they would have written "mouton enragé" instead of "mouton-enragé sort of creature". (They're taking advantage of English's lax rules for attributive nominals.) The second quotation does seem to mean a kind of person, but the use of quotation marks, and the paucity of other such quotations, makes me wonder if this is a stock metaphor — if the quotation is metaphorically comparing the character to an angry sheep, using the stock phrase "mouton enragé" that is used in this comparison, rather than actually saying that the character is a "mouton enragé [which is a kind of person]". —Ruakh_TALK 23:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The citation from The Economist makes it clear that mouton enragé means a kind of person. Also, please can someone find a reference for this being Nicolas de Condorcet's nickname and put in the References section? Thanks, Harris Morgan 19:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC).

Added a reference that mention the nicknames and gives its origin in comment notes. It's in French, though. The expression has little currency in modern French. Far as I can tell, the other nickname along these same lines, (deprecated template usage) un volcan couvert de neige, is the one likely to be referrenced (though still uncommon). Circeus 19:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - much appreciated. Harris Morgan 21:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC).

So is it a proper english phrase and that it can be used in essays etc.?

Yes. But it could still be used in essays (etc.) even if it were only a French word. French words and phrases are often included in literary works, although not as commonly today as in the past. --EncycloPetey 04:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)