Talk:netty
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(Please note I put a reference section on this piece as the text has cites.)
Hello, we have a two party disagreement on the Geordie page between me (toasty874) and [the dragon slayor] (Sigurd the Dragon Slayor if my link fails [8]). You can see a detailed discussion on Sigurds page[9], look for the toilet talk sub heading, as a Netty is a toilet. (It is of note that there is even more discussion about the netty on his page, but this is from earlier edits -7. His Sig, and downward- that were done weeks before this one.)
I requested a third party, and a third party suggested I come here as you specialise in etymology.
He (Sigmund) recently put in an edit to this text,
However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol.
Over five edits on the Geordie page.[10] [11] [12] [13] [14]
So the text would look like this
The geordie word netty,[1] meaning a toilet and place of need and necessity for relief[2][1][3] or bathroom,[2][1][3] has an uncertain origin,[4]though some have theorised that it may come from slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall,[5] which may have later become gabinetti in the Romanic Italian language[5] (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley.[5] Another article about the Westoe Netty is featured here [6]). However gabbinetto is the Modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. Thus, another explanation would be that it comes from a Modern Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti.[4] Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.[7]
Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words...[3], claims that the etymon[8] of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needy and need
Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to the earlier form, the Old English níd; he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'". [2]
Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".[2]
Using the material he put in (that is concerned with Gabbi) I edited the text even more, he had a problem with it and reverted [15].
I reedited with more detail and restructured the piece, kept my detail in he took out and reordered the piece into three thinking points [16], and Sigurd reverted. (The article has three thinking points: Thinking point one is the O.E origin from necassary. Thinking point two is from an italian migration where netty is a contamination of gabinetti. Thinking point three is about a shared latin root between Gabi-netti and Geordie Netty, which highlights a latin parent route that is not contaminated)
To baby feed my restructuring I will put in bold how I reorganised the thinking points, though note I’m not using this Baby feed term to insult anyone here:
The geordie word netty,[1] meaning a toilet[5][6][2][1][3], a place of need and necessity for relief,[5][6][2][1][3] bathroom, [5][6][2][1][3] has an uncertain origin,[4]
Thinking point 1: Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words...[3], suggests that the etymon[17] of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needyand need
Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to an earlier form, the Old English níd, he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'". [2]
Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".[2]
Thinking point 2: However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. So an explanation could be that the term netty comes directly from the Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti.[4] Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.[7] Making this possibility more inert, and keeping the roots of the Geordie Netty and Italian gabinetti separated on different descending paths from what can only be the shared Latin parent.
Thinking point 3: It is theorised, Netty, using the passage of Latin roots that it may have come from Latin slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall,[5] which may have later in a separate root become gabinetti in the descending Romanic Italian language[5][4] after the Roman occupation from AD 43 to 410 (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley.[5] and this article on the famous Westoe Netty origin and restoration.[6]) and which may have become the adjective netti in Italian and the verb nettoyer in French.
Concentrating on the two roots in gabi-netti/gabi-netto(Toilet/toilets) separate root passage, with the Italian migration thinking inert,[7] thus making the Geordie netty' and gabinetti roots separated. We can see a shared meaning, that happened, "despite" root separation through lack of regional Romanic migration[7] since AD 410.
Gabbi: in gabi-netti/gabi-netto (toilet/toilets), is the Romanic Italian diminutive of gabbia, which derives from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that also became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol
Nett: In French, another later Romanic language, like Italian et al, the verb nettoyer means to wipe. And in Romanic Italian the adjective netti, means to clean. Signifying the root of Nett, in gabi-netti, nettoyer, Roman slang Netti/Netty and Geordie netty, goes back to Roman times. If weighting using separated Roman Latin roots; Nett/Net it can be argued ‘ "Nett" been historically used as a place and a process for basic human hygiene, refreshment and relief, to wipe clean since at least the Roman times.
It is off interest the Italian netto/ netti, the French word net, the English word neat, the Spanish word nítido are all share phonographic sounding, similar to netty and all these words are root related to the Latin niti-dus which also means to clean, shine and polish.
Putting Gabbi, which is derived from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure"), and putting it with with the Latin Root of nett, (found in nettoyer, netty and gabinetti et al) we can elucidate more using the Romanic Gabi-netti. Using its Roman Latin roots we can see highlighted an outside Roman toilet, with a cavity, hollow, and convenience to refresh away from the dwellings for hygiene, which later became an inside toilet enclosure when the technology became available. The same way the Geordie netty, which came from a separate root, came from Latin following AD 410.
He (Sigmund) reverted the above using vague reasoning, and ignoring the fact I used his recent edited text about Gabbia to partially help expand thinking point three (which might actually invalidate his reasoning, and his original edit, for thinking point two seen here:[18] [19] [20] [21] [22]). Now when he reverted I knew this might lead to an edit war. So rather than go for an edit war I went for a third opinion, and they sent me here.
Now I see nothing wrong with my reediting. I respected his recent edit of:
However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol..[23] [24] [25] [26] [27]
His (Sigurds) edit which is concerned with thinking point 2.
My reedit, which revolves around point three, and a little touch up of point two using a cite, does not conclude anything, it merely expands on the etymology, adds more logic, adding more links and even adds dates, it uses one more cite (that highlights root separation since 410AD), than his recent reedit of concern[28] [29] [30] [31] [32].
I was wondering what you lot think of the differences in edits? What should be done here? Is my edit wrong? Does something need restructured etc?
Thank you to all who suggest and look into this.
Again for reference you can go to Sigurds talk page [33]
--Toasted874 08:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
References[edit]
- ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 Graham, Frank ((November 1986)) The Geordie Netty: A Short History and Guide[1], Butler Publishing; New Ed edition, →ISBN Cite error: Invalid
<ref>tag; name "Grah87" defined multiple times with different content - ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 Griffiths, Bill (2005 December 1) A Dictionary of North East Dialect, Northumbria University Press, →ISBN, page 122:
- Netty outside toilet, Ex.JG Annfield Plain 1930s. “nessy or netty”Newbiggin-in-Teesdale C20/mid; “outside netties” Dobson Tyne 1972; ‘lavatory’ Graham Geordie 1979. EDD distribution to 1900: N’d. NE 2001: in circulation. ?C18 nessy from necessary; ? Ital. cabinette; Raine MS locates a possible early ex. “Robert Hovyngham sall make… at the other end of hys house knyttyng” York 1419, in which case root could be OE nid ‘necessity’. Plus “to go to the Necessary” (public toilet) Errington p.67 Newcastle re 1800s: “lav” Northumbrian III C20/2 re Crawcrook; “oot back” G’head 2001 Q; “larty – toilet, a children’s word, the school larties’” MM S.Shields C20/2 lavatory
- ↑ 3.0 3.1 3.2 3.3 3.4 3.5 3.6 Trotter Brockett, John (1829) A glossary of north country words, in use. From an original manuscript, with additions.[2], Oxford University, page 214:
- NEDDY, NETTY, a certain place that will not bear a written explanation; but which is depleted to the very life in a tail-piece in the first edition of Bewick’s Land Birds, p. 285. In the second edition a bar is placed against the offending part of this broad display of native humour. Etymon needy, a place of need or necessity.
- ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 “Netty”, in (Please provide the book title or journal name)[3], (Can we date this quote?): “although some theories suggest it is an abbreviation of Italian gabbinetti, meaning ‘toilet’”
- ↑ 5.0 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.6 5.7 5.8 “Urinal finds museum home”, in (Please provide the book title or journal name)[4], 2007 October 8 (last accessed): “the urinals have linguistic distinction: the Geordie word "netty" for lavatory derives from Roman slang on Hadrian's Wall which became "gabinetto" in Italian” Cite error: Invalid
<ref>tag; name "Netty897" defined multiple times with different content - ↑ 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 6.4 “Famed Geordie netty is museum attraction”, in The Northern Echo[5], 2007 March 31 Cite error: Invalid
<ref>tag; name "Netty898" defined multiple times with different content - ↑ 7.0 7.1 7.2 7.3 Saunders, Rod (2008 September 3 (last accessed)) “Italian Migration to Nineteenth Century Britain: Why and Where, Why?”, in (Please provide the book title or journal name)[6], www.anglo-italianfhs.org.uk:
- They were never in great numbers in the northern cities. For example, the Italian Consul General in Liverpool, in 1891, is quoted as saying that the majority of the 80-100 Italians in the city were organ grinders and street sellers of ice-cream and plaster statues. And that the 500-600 Italians in Manchester included mostly Terrazzo specialists, plasterers and modellers working on the prestigious, new town hall. While in Sheffield 100-150 Italians made cutlery.
- ^ (*et•y•mon Pronunciation (t-mn)
- n. pl. et•y•mons or et•y•ma (-m)
- 1. An earlier form of a word in the same language or in an ancestor language. For example, Indo-European *duwo and Old English tw are etymons of Modern English two.
- 2. A word or morpheme from which compounds and derivatives are formed.
- 3. A foreign word from which a particular loan word is derived. For example, Latin duo, "two," is an etymon of English duodecimal.[7])