Talk:rampogna

Where does rampògna come from?

@Embryomystic You changed the Pronunciation from rampógna to rampógna,rampògna. Is this based on DiPI? If so you are misreading it. Anything after a semicolon is "less-preferred" and should not be included as a pronunciation. Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 06:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Actually I now see many such places you seem to have misinterpreted DiPI. Examples: Anassimene, antico, areligioso, cirrosi. In some cases like cirrosi, nefrosi, pentodo, etc. you give a second pronunciation that DiPI explicitly marks as wrong. In Anassimene, fagocito, etc. you give a second pronunciation that DiPI marks as "traditional" meaning it is no longer current, and needs to be prefaced by a # to indicate this. I am going to have to review and correct all your pronunciation changes, which is annoying. Please be more careful in the future, and click on the "Varianti di pronuncia" section at the bottom of each page to see what the various symbols mean. Benwing2 (talk) 06:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing To be fair, I was the one to make Anassimene, and without DiPI. DiPI describes the standard language: when he marks things with ↓ he means "do not use this if you are going to be the television news presenter", not "this is wrong". We describe the spoken language, he proscribes the standard news language. We should have everything that he labels after ; and also everything he labels after ↓ (eg: chiesa). Catonif (talk) 10:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 sorry I pinged the wrong username. Catonif (talk) 11:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I'd be happy to go through the pages that link DiPI and fix any errors. What @Catonif is saying is how I understood the situation, though. Is there a way you'd like me to tag lower-status pronunciations like that? embryomystic (talk) 23:05, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Catonif, Embryomystic I strongly disagree we should have all these forms. After the semicolon you find all sorts of random nonstandard pronunciations. We don't include such pronunciations in English, for example, and if we do, there is a good reason and they are tagged as proscribed. What you've been doing is willy-nilly including all sorts of random stuff without tagging it as proscribed; that gives a completely false picture and won't help language learners at all. Embryomystic, if you feel compelled to include proscribed pronunciations, please tag them using [proscribed] after the pronunciation; but please don't include them at all unless they really represent common pronunciations (i.e. they are the norm among some significant chunk of the population), not just something you might hear once in a while in some random village in Umbria. Benwing2 (talk) 08:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Since when nonstandard = bad? For language learners it might just be clutter, but here we are describing the spoken language. This is not giving the false picture at all, other dictionaries are, by only describing the standard. DiPI ⟨;⟩ means "common, but unpreferrable if you want to be the newsperson", not "random thing you'll find in a village in Umbria", DiPI doesn't bother documenting rare stuff. Also note that ⟨.⟩ means "no longer preferred by the modern standard", not "no longer in use". It's the standard that has shifted, but we're all still pronouncing things like we were before: the areas who before said /'tsuppa/ will still most likely say /'tsuppa/, and those who said /'dzuppa/ will still most likely say /'dzuppa/. It's also worth noting that the great majority of voice actors still use what Canepari calls traditional. And I also note that many pronunciations that DiPI marks with a down arrow, and I don't disagree with him in doing so, because it's true that one shouldn't use them in a professional voicing session, but are actually the most common pronunciations in Rome: luneddì, ccosì, ssedia, etc. and we're only talking about Rome, one of the closest things to the standard: think about all of the central-south. Also doesn't "proscribed" imply that there's someone proscribing them? Who would that be, other than the single man Canepari. There are proscribed pronunciations, but all about stress position, while basically nobody has ever proscribed mid-vowel openness nor syntactic gemination. Catonif (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Catonif If you feel strongly about including all these questionable and nonstandard pronunciations, please bring this up in the Beer Parlour. As an English-language dictionary, our audience is English speakers, not Italian speakers, and they will almost always be language learners. We should document standard pronunciations and for any pronunciations that do not reflect the current standard, include them only if they are common in standard (not dialectal) speech, and make sure to appropriately tag them. We should follow the lead of other dictionaries here and not take the position that all other dictionaries are wrong. I'm not sure you understand the concept of "undue weight", which is what we're giving to these nonstandard pronunciations if we (a) include uncommon ones, (b) don't properly tag them as nonstandard and/or proscribed. And no, it's not only Canepari proscribing them; he's undoubtedly trying to document common sentiments, not making shit up himself. Benwing2 (talk) 21:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2 1) Undoubtedly? Yet here I am, doubting that. Find me anyone else that says "some people say rampògna but they're wrong" and I'll stand corrected. 2) I never talked about dialects. 3) Neither rampògna nor Anassìmene are uncommon. 4) You're saying “let's not list this because it confuses learners”, well it's because reality is confusing, but you can't just pretend it doesn't exist. Proposal: we could make nonstandard pronunciation collapsible if you don't want to scare learners away. Catonif (talk) 22:07, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Catonif Are you proposing including them with a "nonstandard", "regional" or "proscribed" tag, or without such a tag? Benwing2 (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Not sure. I'd say "regional", as I've done in pronunciation sections until now. Catonif (talk) 22:29, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Catonif I think you need to tag anything that's proscribed as proscribed, not just regional, and those that are traditional as such. I have a symbol # that precedes a pronunciation that specifically tags it as "traditional", plus ! for "careful" (DiPI's up-arrow) and !! for weird learned pronunciations (DiPI's up-down arrow that he describes as àulica). We can create a symbol for "regional" if that would help you. I think hiding all the nonstandard pronunciations is the right thing to do if you really want to include them. Benwing2 (talk) 22:39, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2 “I think you need to tag anything that's proscribed as proscribed”, correct. But you've yet to find me anyone proscribing rampògna. About the technicalities, do as you find most pleasable, as long as I can still list regional pronunciations somewhere. Catonif (talk) 22:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Catonif I didn't say rampògna was proscribed, but it's "less-preferred" by DiPI; if this is a regional pronunciation, you still haven't tagged it as such, and it needs to be tagged one way or another so people know it's nonstandard. "Proscribed" is referring e.g. to cirrosi, nefrosi, pentodo, which are explicitly proscribed by DiPI and where whoever added the proscribed pronunciations didn't tag them. Benwing2 (talk) 23:05, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Ok, I agree it's good being stricter on these science words. I still don't particularly like that the pronunciation cited above (cchiesa, ccosì, ddue, etc.) will be tagged as "proscribed", because there's pretty much only Canepari proscribing those, but I'll comply. Catonif (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)