Talk:rattus

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rattus

Translingual section: Specific epithets are never proper nouns. The entry has a wrong part of speech, wrong language, and no definition. --EncycloPetey 18:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think rattus means anything on its own (or does it?). You could make a similar argument for parce in French, as it's only ever used with que (or qu'). Mglovesfun (talk) 18:19, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

It does in Latin, but in taxonomic names, it does not. The duplication "Rattus rattus" is a quirk of the ICZN that effectively means "the rat rat". --EncycloPetey 18:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I meant […] apart from in Latin. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:22, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The difference with this situation is that we're discussing a Translingual entry, which should be something used in many, many languages as a word, and that the situation involves the parts of a proper noun. To put forth an example that may help demonstrate my thinking: suppose for the sake of argument that United Kingdom is translingual, and that it is the form of the name used in many, many languages. That would not mean that kingdom is also a translingual word, or even a word in any of those languages except the parent language. The fact that it appears as part of a larger name does not make the component element translingual. This isn't entirely a hypothetical argument either, as it would apply to the name of (deprecated template usage) Burkina Faso, from which we could not infer that Faso was an English word, even though Burkina Faso has an English entry. When names have hopped language, the component pieces have not necessarily hopped with them. --EncycloPetey 19:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Should Rattus#Translingual be shown as a descendant of rattus#Latin? DCDuring TALK 18:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but note that it's Medieval Latin. In Classical Latin, the word was mus, and I think (but am not certain) that the rat was originally included in the genus Mus. I've not been able to find a statement concerning this etymology further, although I suspect the Medieval Latin derives from some Germanic language. --EncycloPetey 18:38, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure it's Medieval Latin? Webster's Unabridged says "New Latin, from English rat". --Vahagn Petrosyan 20:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. It's in Niermeyer's Mediae Latinitatis Lexicon Minus. If I'm reading the citations right, then the earliest citation is dated prior to 1089 and credited to a work by a Canterbury bishop. This would be too early for New Latin. --EncycloPetey 20:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Webster's is probably referring to Rattus as a proper noun naming the genus, which use originated in New Latin with the rise of Linnean taxonomy. However, the word rattus as a common noun can be traced back much further, and Linnaeus did not make the grammatical distinction as clearly as a grammarian would. --EncycloPetey 20:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Deleted.​—msh210℠ (talk) 17:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)