Talk:temps primitif

RFD discussion: December 2017–July 2020

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temps primitif

Sum of parts? The English translation doesn't seem to mean anything to me. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Probably SOP as temps = tense, primitif = primitive = original, not derived. An examples of a primitive tense could English present simple (I go, thou goest, he goeth or goes only contain a form of go and no helping verb), while perfect and non-simple could be non-primitive (I am gone, I am going are composed a form of be and a form of go). However, temps primitif needs an explanation how a tense is primitive and through the explanation primitive = formed without a helping verb it's not so SOP anymore. Additionally, other tenses (Category:en:Tenses) and grammatical terms (Category:en:Grammar) might be somewhat SOP-like too but do have entries. -80.133.101.86 15:33, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, IP is right. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Delete. HeliosX (talk) 17:31, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Keep per IP. PUC – 11:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Could this be primary tense (= present and future), as opposed to secondary tense (= past/preterite, imperfect, perfect, pluperfect)? —Mahāgaja · talk 13:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  @Mahagaja: I don't think so, at least not in the context of Latin grammar learning, which is where I've heard it used. In that context the "temps primitifs" are the present tense, the perfect tense and the supine (which is not a tense, but anyway), because from their stems you can derive other tenses (pluperfect and so on). For example, a teacher might ask a pupil to "réciter les temps primitifs du verbe amāre", to which the answer would be "amare, amo, amavi, amatum". PUC – 13:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  Unsurprisingly, it's also used for Ancient Greek. It's probably used for other languages as well. I'd say that in any language, a "temps primitif" is a tense conventionally used to remember a stem from which you can build other forms. Together, the "temps primitifs" provide all the stems you need to conjugate a verb. To me that term is associated with highschool grammar learning. PUC – 14:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  Also, primary tense would be temps primaire, and secondary tense temps secondaire. PUC – 14:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  @PUC: It sounds like the English equivalent is principal part, specifically a principal part of a verb, as I assume you wouldn't call puella and puellae the temps primitifs of puella, would you? —Mahāgaja · talk 14:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  @Mahagaja: Yes, it sounds like it! And indeed, it's only used for verbs. Would you keep it? PUC – 14:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  So I opt for Keep, because it is just like principal part but only usable for verbs. I retract this view if I see that “primitif” can be used with other parts of speech thus (unless these are cases analogical to “temps primitif”, WT:JIFFY); in that case primitif needs a grammatical sense. Fay Freak (talk) 14:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  I agree with that line of thought. I don't think it's used with other POS; nothing springs to mind right now. PUC – 14:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Keep; this conversation makes it pretty clear that knowing what temps and primitif mean does not imply knowing what temps primitif means. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

RFD-kept — surjection ⟨??⟩ 23:31, 20 July 2020 (UTC)