Talk:todos os caminhos levam a Roma
Latest comment: 4 months ago by 189.90.66.85 in topic IPA
IPA
[edit]@Amanyn why this? Stríðsdrengur (talk) 14:33, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Stríðsdrengur I don't think it makes sense that todos ends with a /z/ sound in European Portuguese. Amanyn (talk) 14:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ill verify Stríðsdrengur (talk) 14:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- I checked with a native European Portuguese speaker, the default sound is indeed z Stríðsdrengur (talk) 14:44, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Alright. Thank you for your time. Amanyn (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- np :) Stríðsdrengur (talk) 14:47, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Stríðsdrengur sorry to be bothering you, since you said you'll be inactive; but I already figured out why the pronunciation didn't seem right to me: Transmontan (Trás-os-Montes, Northern Portugal) Portuguese (I think only it, but maybe other Northern dialects too) pronounce what would be final /z/ (such as in todos) with /ʒ/. I always thought everyone pronounced it as /ʒ/, no idea how I never noticed it, so that's why it didn't seem right. We should make it so the template includes this difference. Amanyn (talk) 19:50, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Amanyn Well, this can be quickly fixed by @Benwing2 (module creator) Stríðsdrengur (talk) 23:00, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Stríðsdrengur @Amanyn Are you asking about adding a new dialect to the module? This is possible but not as easy as it may seem because each dialect typically has a lot of individual quirks and we'd want to implement them all so as not to be misleading. For example, I think Trás-os-Montes distinguishes ch from x, which other dialects don't do. We've in general tried to cater to this possibility by respelling x with sh rather than ch when necessary to get the /ʃ/ sound, but there are probably subtleties we've missed. Benwing2 (talk) 23:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Benwing2 I just made a recommendation, I understand almost nothing about the European dialect and its phonological characteristics. Stríðsdrengur (talk) 23:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Benwing2 I mean, I think the only aspect on which the dialect from Trás-os-Montes differs from the rest of the Northern dialects is this one, so if possible we should make it so the dialect only appears on entries where this happens. About distinguishing x from ch, do you mean x being pronounced as /ʃ/ and ch as /t͡ʃ/? Here at Wiktionary that's used for all of Nortern Portugal, but I don't know if it's only the Transmontan dialect or also the others.
- By the way, there might be more aspects on which the Transmontan dialect differs, but as the region I live in is where it and other dialects mix, some aspects might occure elsewhere but not here. About this one I'm sure it's Transmontan, though. Amanyn (talk) 18:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Stríðsdrengur @Amanyn Are you asking about adding a new dialect to the module? This is possible but not as easy as it may seem because each dialect typically has a lot of individual quirks and we'd want to implement them all so as not to be misleading. For example, I think Trás-os-Montes distinguishes ch from x, which other dialects don't do. We've in general tried to cater to this possibility by respelling x with sh rather than ch when necessary to get the /ʃ/ sound, but there are probably subtleties we've missed. Benwing2 (talk) 23:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Amanyn Well, this can be quickly fixed by @Benwing2 (module creator) Stríðsdrengur (talk) 23:00, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Stríðsdrengur sorry to be bothering you, since you said you'll be inactive; but I already figured out why the pronunciation didn't seem right to me: Transmontan (Trás-os-Montes, Northern Portugal) Portuguese (I think only it, but maybe other Northern dialects too) pronounce what would be final /z/ (such as in todos) with /ʒ/. I always thought everyone pronounced it as /ʒ/, no idea how I never noticed it, so that's why it didn't seem right. We should make it so the template includes this difference. Amanyn (talk) 19:50, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- np :) Stríðsdrengur (talk) 14:47, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Alright. Thank you for your time. Amanyn (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- The change to /z/ in European Portuguese has to do with sandhi/word-linking. In Standard European Portuguese, word-final S is ʒ/ʃ except when the next word is a vowel; you can interpret it as them saying it as "todo zos caminhos"... You DO encounter people who do realize "s" in such environments as ʒ, but it's not standard. 189.90.66.85 19:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)