User talk:Kolnu Pīters

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References!

Please start adding them. Most high-quality Latgalian entries have them, and it's not that difficult. However it saves me from a lot of headache trying to figure out where you got these words from. Thanks. Thadh (talk) 09:10, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Please do not correct "õ" to "uo" in my articles where I use the symbol õ (instead of the traditional "ō") to represent the diphthong /o͡a /! In Latgali, the diphthong /u͡o/ exists only in a small number of dialects and it is wrong to generalize it to the whole language.

You can see the correct spelling here: Pīters Strods (2016) “Pareizraksteibas vōrdnieca”, Latgolas kultūras centra izdevnīceiba, Rēzekne. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 10:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Correction: “Pareizraksteibas vōrdneica”. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 10:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Another source: Anatolijs Bērzkalns (2007) "Latgaļu volūdas vōrdu krōjums", Latgolas kultūras centra izdevnīceiba, Rēzekne. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 10:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Latgalian is standardised. We lemmatise at the standard. Thadh (talk) 10:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Latgalian writing allows for the possibility of using both "ō" and "uo". The first is more logical and acceptable to many. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 10:51, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Considering ē was replaced by ie completely, I think using the <uo> variant is preferable. Even the Siberian Latgalian phrasebook by Andronov is using <uo>, and since the standard pronunciation is most definitely /uo/, not /oa/, I don't see any benefit from using the monophthong variant. In the end we can always add alternative pronunciations (with labeling!) to the pronunciation section to make clear that not all speakers pronounce <uo> as /uo/. Thadh (talk) 10:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Using the symbols "ie" for the diphthong /e͡e̞/ , /e͡ø̞/, /e͡a/ is also a mistake.

You can listen to it here at the very beginning "Vysi vēji..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-m3kjhQdDw Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not denying the pronunciations, I'm denying your claim that we should adopt a nonstandard spelling. It's not our job to standardise the language, that has already been done. It would maybe be better to rôyt iŋliš lôyk ðis, but that's out of scope for our dictionary. Thadh (talk) 11:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I will repeat: the spelling rules currently allow both forms. But, ok, I don't want to argue - I probably won't continue the work started here. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:22, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

@Kolnu Pīters: We do and always did accept attestable altforms, like e.g. stundeite; Same would go for the ō-forms. We just don't lemmatise at these forms. Thadh (talk) 11:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

"Stundeite" is actually a dialectical form of "Stuņdeite".

Similar: kolni and koļni "hills". Unfortunately, the Latgalian Latvian language is still not fully standardized and both diferent forms of writing and pronunciation are allowed.

The idea of ​​showing such alternative forms is good and necessary. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Typical pronunciation of /oa/ (not /uo/) in the word "õbeḷis" (0:43 and onwards) :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6EXaEsnE8Q Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Here in the title of the song "Dvieseleite dvieselei" with the misunderstood "ie" even /æː/ is written (here (and onward in the chant) you can hear how it sounds (0:53))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnx9PKEBIfw

The singer has a very typical Latgalian pronunciation. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You're missing something - we don't always use transcriptions or pronunciation and such when determining the pagename. Consider CAT:Slovincian lemmas - the orthography is based on a phonemic analysis of the language, but it's still normalized. You can give the pronunciation in the pronunciation section. That does not change the fact we normalize. It's a completely normal process. Vininn126 (talk) 11:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The notation using "uo" and "ie" is disgustingly abnormal :)  and it starts to affect speakers whose language is at an unstable level :( .

For example, the pronounced "ie" of these girls (who have Latgali roots, but learned the language as a second language) hurt the ears. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJHm0YFeEiE Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:28, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Orthography affect pronunciation is nothing new. That doesn't mean we can decide what we prefer to document or not. A standard being in place has priority. Vininn126 (talk) 11:31, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, /uo/ and /ie/, even if they are marked, are the standard language. They have been for the last five decades, at least. We should document the fact that this is the norm, shouldn't we? We can't do anything about the fact that the standard is crappy, that's the way it is with (almost) all languages, especially in the early stages. Thadh (talk) 11:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

We can put that easily in the pronunciation section. Vininn126 (talk) 11:33, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation section allows for parallel display of pronunciation forms? How should the following pronunciation example be formed? Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

water#Pronunciation Vininn126 (talk) 11:51, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I will think about this. Kolnu Pīters (talk) 11:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

A better example might be bogŏcz. But it might be better to put that second pronunciation on a new line. Vininn126 (talk) 11:59, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this option is interesting as well. Thank you! Kolnu Pīters (talk) 12:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)