Talk:藍褸

RFV discussion: February–July 2015

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藍褸

I just changed this to alternative form of 襤褸, but the only dictionary that lists this 藍褸 form is JMdict, and other Japanese dictionaries only give 襤褸 (which is the standard form used in Japanese). (additional note: the same thing happened with JMdict on the entry for 鼾睡, which was previously 鼾酔, a form again only listed in JMdict, until Eirikr moved it to the correct form) Nibiko (talk) 12:44, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• I've noticed in the past that JMdict and KANJIDIC (possibly the same datasets?) have occasionally included mistakes, so I always take their information with a grain of salt. When a purported kanji spelling and the meaning diverge substantially, as was the case with 鼾酔, my eyebrows rise. (FWIW, the JA term kansui spelled with the first character as 鼾 (kan, “snoring”) is listed as meaning "to sleep while snoring". The spelling 鼾睡 expresses that meaning. The JMdict spelling 鼾酔, meanwhile, is listed as meaning just "snoring", but the meaning inherent in the spelling is more like "drunken snorning; to be drunk while snoring".)

The Kokugo Dai Jiten (KDJ) from Shogakukan is pretty good about listing even rare and obsolete terms and alternative spellings, so if a spelling is missing from the KDJ, I become suspicious. When a given spelling doesn't even appear in use in a Google search (zero hits for "鼾酔は", which seems highly suspect; moreover, all given hits for just "鼾酔" seem to be JMdict echoes), I start to think that JMdict made another mistake.

Looking at 藍褸, this appears to be yet another JMdict mistake. This compound's spelling inherently means "indigo + tattered". Japanese ぼろ (boro) means "rag; ragged, threadbare, raggedy", so the 藍 (“indigo”) spelling seems very odd. The normal kanji spelling for boro is 襤褸, and this spelling is literally "threadbare + tattered", which makes much more sense for the meaning of the term boro.

A quick Google search for google:"藍褸"+"は" seems to find 4110 hits, collapsing to just 132 if you try to page through, and all of these appear to be JMdict echoes. Searching for google books:"藍褸"+"は" seems to generate 117 hits, collapsing to 47, but all of the hits I've looked at are presented at best in "Snippet View" based on OCR. I strongly suspect that these are scannos, especially given the jumbled nature of many of the excerpts shown by Google.

@Tsukuyone, TAKASUGI Shinji, Whym, エリック・キィ you're all listed as native JA speakers, and I think you're all active. Can any of you confirm the status of the 藍褸 spelling? Is this an alternative form for 襤褸? Is it a common misspelling for 襤褸? Or, is it a mistake? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

藍褸 seems a rare alternate spelling of 襤褸, though I have never seen it: [1], [2]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I too have never seen this. The links you include, however, also suggest the possibility of simple scannos -- where OCR has misinterpreted the text and used the wrong character.

Can anyone confirm whether this spelling actually happens in the real world? Or is this purely an artifact of inadequate technology? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:48, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it is an alternative spelling mostly for Chinese. “漢字典”（Kanjiten, 2002, Akira Owada [et al.], Tōkyō: Ōbunsha. →ISBN）, a paper dictionary dedicated to reading Old Chinese, contains this entry as a synonym of 襤褸 although their are all represented in on'yomi, ランル. It has even another alternative spelling, 藍蔞. Judging from the element, I personally hesitate to put 藍褸 as Japanese lemma. Furthermore, I usually write this word mostly in hiragana (ぼろ) or katakana (ボロ). --エリック・キィ (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest to include it as an obsolete alternative spelling in Japanese, perhaps adding that it was primarily used in the context of sinology. Daijiten (1934-1936) and Jigen (1923) list it explicitly as an alternate spelling. Jigen further explains in the entry for 藍 that "襤は古、藍に通ず" ("襤 traditionally leads to 藍"). It should be noted that in this context Jigen probably means ancient Chinese by "traditionally", though. There is what looks like a non-scanno use in Japanese in 狩野直喜『支那學文藪』(1927), p.295 (at the fifth line from the right): "一方より見れば彼が斯學に於ける篳路藍褸の功はその人格によってこれを沒することは出來ぬ。" The work itself seems to be about sinology, in line with エリック・キィ's comment above. Another is in 青柳綱太郎『鮮人の記せる豊太閤征韓戦記』(1912) (...): "藍褸の狀は、反つて平凉子を戴くが如くならず". That said, I'm with others about the (lack of) current usage. I had never seen the spelling before and for me 襤 and 藍 are totally different except for the shared on'yomi pronunciation (ran). By the way, we should probably remove boro and add ranru as for the pronunciation of 藍褸 unless the former reading is attested. So far all we have found about the spelling is read ranru not boro, unlike 襤褸 which should have both. Whym (talk) 03:17, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for the 縷説, everyone ;D I'll make the changes, Whym. Nibiko (talk) 21:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

RFV-passed, I guess. Nibiko links some citations above. - -sche (discuss) 04:43, 23 July 2015 (UTC)