Template talk:ja-verbconj

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Documentation[edit]

This template allows you to show the essential forms of any Japanese verb. Sub-templates exist for ichidan verbs {{ja-ichi}}, godan verbs {{ja-go}}, suru verbs {{ja-suru}}, kuru verbs {{ja-kuru}}, and irregular honorific verbs {{ja-honorific}}.

Each row has three entries. The first entry in each row (e.g. 1, 4, 7, 10...) should contain the kanji representation of that verb, or the hiragana if no kanji exists. The second (e.g. 2, 5, 8...) should contain the hiragana of the verb. The third (3, 6, 9...) should contain the romaji form of that verb, and will be automatically italicized.

Discussion[edit]

Needs working on or am I wrong?[edit]

Is it just me or does this template need a lot of work? I'm not an expert in Japanese, but it seems to be lacking (for example the verb 食べる) the form 食べません or tabemasen- and should it perhaps show "translations", like under "tabemasu" there would be written "I/you/he/we ----" so people can infer that "tabemasu" can mean "I eat" or "we eat"? --BiT 22:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

While this reply is eternally late, yes, it needs working. I'll be putting it in my userspace for some work and table-isation VNNS 16:39, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Seems like a bad title. Why not {{ja-conj}}? Certainly I'll have a look if asked to. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:53, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

@BiT --

Rather than deixis along the lines of the verb actor -- who's doing what -- Japanese has deixis along the lines of audience -- who's being spoken to, and the social relationship with the speaker. Consequently, Japanese has no concept of grammatical person, so there's no need for or utility in adding "I / we / etc". Also consequently, Japanese does have an extensive system of honorifics, which is where the difference between plain form and formal desu/masu speech comes into play. This is a bit like the tu - vous distinction in French, tu - usted in Spanish, or du - Sie in German. English used to have this too, and we can still find vestiges of this in Shakespeare's use of thou versus you.

Then again, you probably already know this.  :) Ultimately, though, if someone is going to the trouble of learning how to conjugate Japanese verbs, I think it's safe to assume they've already learned that there's no grammatical person involved.

@Everyone --

I'm making a minor alteration to the beginning of the template to match Template:es-conj-er etc., as it seems significantly clearer to me to have the link to the Appendix more explicitly indicated.

Incidentally, what do you all think of reworking this table a bit? It seems odd to have the "Formal" row and then not have "Perfective Formal" and "Negative Formal". For that matter, ます is just a plain old straightforwardly conjugating 助動詞 -- so shouldn't we just point folks to the Appendix and explain the formal constructions there?

Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 19:26, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

@Everyone -- I started this template many years ago when Wiktionary was just a wee experiment ... nice to see that it's survived this long. Just to address a couple of points that have been brought up: my assumption is that anyone who is learning Japanese presumably has learned how to conjugate "-masu", and if not, should probably go somewhere else to learn that so as not to make this template unnecessarily long. The "stem forms" section was meant to show all conjugations as formally taught in Japanese schools, the "classical" view. Since these forms are not adequate to express the variety of ways in which verb stems change in actual modern usage, however, I included a "key constructions" section for the purpose of ensuring that every possible conjugation a Japanese student would be likely to encounter in actual usage was represented. I included only constructions for which irregularities existed that needed to be explicity called out: for example, I included "formal" because "-masu" doesn't always take the continuative stem, as in "irassharu" becoming "irasshaimasu" instead of "irassharimasu". I omitted the "non-hypothetical conditional" form "-tara" because in every case, "-tara" conjugates the same as the perfective "-ta".

The reason I kept this base template separate from the sub-templates {{ja-ichi}}, {{ja-go}}, etc. was because I wanted it to be easy to modify the template to add forms or verb subtypes without having to redraw the entire template. I hope it's been useful, and of course, I'm sure it can still be improved.

Cheers, --Aaronsama 13:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)