User talk:Apsaros1921

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Vahag (talk) 21:28, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

ҙ

How would you like to romanize this Bzyp letter? What additional Bzyp letters do you want to add to Wiktionary:Abkhaz transliteration? Vahag (talk) 21:44, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

To be honest, I don’t know, maybe like ż? Apsaros

I used ź, because that's what {{R:ab:Chirikba}} uses. --Vahag (talk) 17:54, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Can you do the same with other additional letters? Like ҫ=ṡ. Apsaros

Can you give me here a list of all additional Bzyp letters? --Vahag (talk) 20:19, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeap. ҙ /ʑ/; ҙә /ʑʷ/; ҫ /ɕ/; ҫә /ɕʷ/; ӡ' /dʑ/; ц' /tɕʰ/; ҵ' /tɕʼ/; х' /χˤ/; х'ә /χˤʷ/ + ф' /fʼ/ (Abzhywa dialect letter). Apsaros

 Done, except for the trigraph х'ә (x̣ʷ), for which I need @Erutuon's help. --Vahag (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Done! Just needed another gsub before the digraph gsub. — Eru·tuon 19:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Also. Is it possible to change all the letters ҧ to ԥ? Apsaros

You need to move those by hand. --Vahag (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Да, я уже заметил то, что могу это делать) спасибо вам. Apsaros1921 (talk) 18:18, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Не за что. Если написание неправильное, не надо оставлять перенаправления. Добавьте {{delete|wrong spelling}} где-нибудь на странице, я удалю. --Vahag (talk) 18:25, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Привет! Хочу создать страницу состоящую из двух слов, например "ауриа бызшәа", она сразу разбивается на два ауриа и бызшәа, но слова бызшәа нет, есть слово абызшәа (а-бызшәа), как сделать так, чтобы ссылалось именно на страницу с артиклем а? (надеюсь смог объяснить...) Apsaros1921 (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Надо делать так: {{ab-noun|head=[[ауриа|а-уриа]] [[абызшәа|бызшәа]]|sort=уриа бызшәа}}. Vahag (talk) 09:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Спасибо огромнейшее) Apsaros1921 (talk) 10:32, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Abkhaz words for sand lizard

Please update the other ones of these dialectal terms to link to the proper English entry: [[sand lizard]] instead of something like Sand [[lizard]] Acolyte of Ice (talk) 10:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Stop doing this

Stop using {{wikipedia}} when no article exists on Wikipedia. კვარია (talk) 21:34, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I'll make links under all the articles, sorry! Apsaros1921 (talk) 21:36, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Alright, no problem. What about this Talk:Аԥсуа? კვარია (talk) 21:45, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

By the way, do you have alerts disabled or something? If I understood you correctly at Talk:Аԥсуа you want to do this:

{{head|ab|noun|head=а-ԥс-уа|head2=а-ԥс-ыуа}}

which will do this:

а-ԥс-уа or а-ԥс-ыуа • (a-ps-wa or a-ps-əwa)

PS: Just to make sure we understood eachother correctly, I meant {{wikipedia|lang=xmf}} template that creates something like "Mingrelian Wikipedia has an article on: blabla". If there's no article on Mingrelian/Georgian wikipedia for that particular thing then there's no reason to use that template.

კვარია (talk) 06:48, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Template:bor

Unless some Abkhaz speaker started using a term after hearing a speaker of Proto-Indo-European say it, or after seeing it in a book, {{bor|ab|ine-pro}} is completely wrong. {{bor}} can only be used for borrowing into the language of the entry directly from the other language. Anything in between means you have to use {{der}}. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Ubykh

Привет! Откуда Вы берете убыхские слова на кириллице? Vahag (talk) 17:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Здравствуйте! Мы сделали алфавит с одним парнем (частично убыхоговорящим), отталкиваясь от расширенного абхазского алфавита и букв отвечающих за те же звуки в других кириллических алфавитах ([ɬ] ԯ и так далее). Apsaros1921 (talk) 17:14, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

А я думал убыхоговорящих больше не существует. Слова, как шаԥсоу (ŝapsow), малеиқьа (malejkʲa), от того же парня или из какой-нибудь публикации? PS. Если Вы не против, перейдем на "ты". Vahag (talk) 17:23, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Ну он обучается, и уже может выражать в речи базовые мысли)

Нет, сами слова в основном из словарей Ханса Фогта и Фенвика, ну и из других различных материалов по убыхскому языку.

шаԥсоу (šapsaw в словаре) как раз со словаря Фогта, а малеиқьа (mɜlɐjkʲɜ в словаре) с Фенвика. Apsaros1921 (talk) 17:30, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Понятно. Так как твой алфавит — нов, его следует задокументировать на Wiktionary:Ubykh transliteration, по аналогии с Wiktionary:Udi transliteration. Первая колонка — твой алфавит, вторая — латинская транслитерация (можешь предложить свой вариант, желательно чтобы соответствовало системе Wiktionary:Adyghe transliteration и Wiktionary:Kabardian transliteration), третья — произношение, дальше, по возможности, соответствия со системами стандартных работ (Vogt, Dirr, Dumézil, Von Meszaros, Janashia), чтобы мы могли нормализовать слова из этих работ в твой алфавит. Vahag (talk) 18:03, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Сделал, правда ничего не изменилось пока) Apsaros1921 (talk) 20:54, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Спасибо! По этой схеме, šapsaw Фогта будет шаԥсау, а не шаԥсоу. Разве не так? Vahag (talk) 12:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Это аллофон же, как и в абхазском: атоура [atʼawra], доусы [dawsə], Нарсоу [narsaw] и так далее.

[o̞w] оу ← [aw] ау Apsaros1921 (talk) 13:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Понятно. Я сделал автоматический транслитерационный модуль. Если заметишь неточности, скажи. В таблицу WT:UBY TR следует добавить палочку <ӏ>, которую ты использовал в Ӄурӏан (Qurʔan). Также, прошу перевести baγə́r, bja, bzə, bzəpɕə, dʷa, tʃaaj на кириллицу. Vahag (talk) 16:31, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Я уберу палочку, я прошелся по словарям и эта фонема была лишь в парочке заимствований с арабского как Qurӏan, Maӏan и так далее. Фогт/Чирикба пишут то, что для убыхского характерен переход ӏ > ҟ, то есть в палочке нет надобности)

Спасибо за все!) Apsaros1921 (talk) 17:14, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Пожалуйста. Kavkaz - Sila 💪💪💪 Vahag (talk) 17:16, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Еще надо пройтись по Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/uby и нормализовать убыхскую орфографию на этих страницах. Vahag (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Нужен небольшой совет.

Смотри, в убыхском есть вот такая система [wa] → [wo̞] (узнал о ней только что...)

то есть, уанџьаӄ > уонџьаӄ / уафада > уофада и так далее (но не во всех случаях)

в итоге мне менять все на уо, или оставить уа, но прописать в мфа что там произносится как [wo̞]? Apsaros1921 (talk) 10:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Не знаю. У Фогта — wafáda, wəfáda. У Дюмезиля — wofədä․ У Дирра — wofəda. Если разница фонетическая, а не фонемическая, то лучше не менять орфографию, а показывать произношение в МФА. Кстати, bja, bzəpɕə, dʷa и tʃaaj ждут нормализации в кириллицу. Vahag (talk) 10:51, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Извини за беспокойство! Я тут подумал, а можно ли в абхазском расширенном заменить ц' ӡ' ҵ' на ць ӡь ҵь (такой вариант использовал Чирикба в ряде работ: [Расселение абхазов и абазин в Турции]; [Словарь убыхский фамилий]; [Вестник Академии Наук, 6 выпуск, стр 55] и так далее). Тем самым апостроф останется лишь как признак фарингализации согласной. Apsaros1921 (talk) 09:19, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Можно, но сначала нужно задокументировать абхазский алфавит, как он предлагается использовать в Wiktionary. Можешь в Wiktionary:Abkhaz transliteration сделать аналог Wiktionary:Ubykh transliteration, заменив то, что там есть сейчас? В четвертом столбце вместо Фогта можно задокументировать латиницу, используемую в {{R:ab:Chirikba}}. Vahag (talk) 13:43, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Сделал) Apsaros1921 (talk) 18:51, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Я тоже. Vahag (talk) 20:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Привет! Начну с того, что поблагодарю тебя за твою работу над убыхским, всегда приятно видеть участников которые работают над миноритарными языками.

У меня есть одна просьба: Не мог ли ты ссылаться на свои источники на страницах, которые ты создаёшь? Для этого тебе надо будет сделать шаблон для того словаря/грамматики итп., которым ты пользуешься (можешь взять пример с {{R:kpv:Podorova:1948}}) и добавлять его в статьи, когда ты их создаёшь, под заголовком "References". Если сразу не получится, ты мне скажи, я помогу. Суть в том, что если на твоих статьях есть ссылки, то читатель всегда сможет проверить информацию в первичном источнике, если это потребуется.

Спасибо. Вообще, если тебе что-либо не понятно, ты всегда можешь спросить, и я и Вахаг с удовольствием тебе поможем! Приятных тебе правок :) Thadh (talk) 16:25, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

У нас уже есть {{R:uby:Vogt}} и {{R:uby:Dirr}}. Если используешь что-то другое, скажи, я сделаю шаблоны. Я лучший шаблоноделатель на этом сайте. Vahag (talk) 16:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

О спасибо) Apsaros1921 (talk) 20:53, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Запутался в звуках ҿ и ч в словаре Фогта, в итоге исправляю все.

Он использует Čʼ для ҿ и Č' для ч. Apsaros1921 (talk) 20:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Надо соответственно исправить четвертый столбец в Wiktionary:Ubykh transliteration. Также, перед названием шаблона надо ставить звездочку и надо указывать номер страницы вот так. Vahag (talk) 21:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

"maybe we use ҳ for [x], and use хь [χʲ] for [h/ħ]?

this is a common sound evolution in ubykh:

Abkhaz [a-ħ(ə)] = Ubykh [a-χʲə] (prince)

Abkhaz [a-ħa] = Ubykh [a-χʲa] (pear)

just the number of words with [h/ħ] is very low, it's about 20-30 borrowings from ottoman/circassian"

перенаправляю и сюда, твое мнение интересно.

есть два звука [x] [h], количество букв в кириллице ограничено и свободна явно лишь ҳ Apsaros1921 (talk) 20:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Не знаю, Апсарос. Я не спец в северокавказских языках. Vahag (talk) 09:44, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Ubykh "х"

Hello - I've noticed that Ubykh "х" is used for "x" (IPA [χ]) and "χ" (IPA [x]) in Vogt's dictionary. I think these should be distinguished, because otherwise [xa] ("sift") and [χa] ("knit") are written the same. хаироон ҫәылаханах also has both in the same word.

Perhaps Ӽ would be good for [x]? This also affects ԯаха, ԯаха дыма, ҭхоу, у'ацьхы, шьха, шьхаҟа, шьхы and шьхыӷәыны. Theknightwho (talk) 06:21, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho I must note that if there is some custom established among the speakers it makes sense to follow that. I would imagine typing/writing Ӽ might be quite difficult. Thadh (talk) 13:33, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

This sound is present for the mostly in words borrowed from the Circassian. For example i use the letter "г" for [ɣ] and [ɡ]. The first phoneme is found in only one word [ɣa], second is only in borrowings.

btw although of course i thought of coming up with a separate letter for [x] Apsaros1921 (talk) 21:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

If you are sure! I also noticed [ɣ] and [ɡ], but I agree they are not a problem. [x] and [χ] seems to affect more words. Theknightwho (talk) 13:41, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, words with [x] are much more common. If we add a separate letter, then we need to choose which one. Apsaros1921 (talk) 11:14, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I think it is better, because [x] and [χ] can both be in the same word. I have realised that Ӽ is a bad choice, because Х/Ӽ would be inconsistent with К/Ӄ. Maybe Ӿ or Хъ? Theknightwho (talk) 19:40, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Would any speaker actually use this? If not, please, don't try to invent a standard on Wiktionary, because that's not up to us. Thadh (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Agree. Modern Ubykhs cannot even pronounce most of the sounds of their language (in their surnames). They pronounce [ʃχapʰlə] instead of [ṡχapʰɬʼə], [vondʒa] instead of [wo̞nɖʐa] etc. Apsaros1921 (talk) 20:19, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

maybe we use ҳ for [x], and use хь [χʲ] for [h/ħ]?

this is a common sound evolution in ubykh:

Abkhaz [a-ħ(ə)] = Ubykh [a-χʲə] (prince)

Abkhaz [a-ħa] = Ubykh [a-χʲa] (pear)

just the number of words with [h/ħ] is very low, it's about 20-30 borrowings from ottoman/circassian. Apsaros1921 (talk) 21:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Why are we inventing a Cyrillic orthography for an unwritten language? I could see IPA or a practical Latin orthography, since this is English Wk (and similarly IPA or a practical Cyrillic orthography on Russian Wk), but these edits make it look like Ubykh was actually written this way. kwami (talk) 02:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: I've already responded to you on the other thread, but imposing a Latin orthography on a language of Russia just because we are an English Wiktionary is not only extremely disrespectful but also borderline agressive behaviour. Using IPA in entries is not a very good idea because searching for IPA is very difficult, unlike searching for more established alphabets. Thadh (talk) 08:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

But there's no connection to Cyrillic. It was a language of Turkey when recorded, and unwritten. You could argue that imposing a Cyrillic alphabet is disrespectful because they were ethnically cleansed from Russia. Giving the Cyrillic and then Latin transliteration the way we do makes it look like it's the orthography of the language, which is disrespectful to our readers. kwami (talk) 16:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

бҙаҭәа

Tbh this definition should be elaborated as the word "link" has several potential meanings. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 14:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion

Please provide the correct spelling for a misspelled word when you nominate it for deletion. That way the correct spelling can still be found after it's deleted. Ultimateria (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Adolf Dirr (1928) Die Sprache der Ubychen, LEIPZIG

• http://apsnyteka.org/361-dirr_die_sprache_der_ubychen.html

Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 22:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)