User talk:Frankjh

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Yehyek tunal!

I see you joined Wiktionary a couple of years ago and just added a lot of Pipil translations. One of our administrators, Metaknowledge, told me about the Pipil additions. It's exciting to have those.

So far, we have only one Pipil entry, at, which can be found by looking at the category page for Pipil.

We ask that Wiktionary contributors add a "Babel box" to their user page. Yours would be something like:

{{Babel | en | es-4 }}

The "en" (with no number) means native speaker of English and "es-4" means near native speaker of Spanish. Unfortunately, the Babel box cannot yet handle "ppl," the code for Pipil.

I would like to offer to be a mentor to help you get used to Wiktionary as part of our new mentoring program. I would also like to give you some useful links for Wiktionary, but in the meantime, please let me know about whether you are interested in the mentoring program. You can respond here, on my talk page or on the mentoring page. --BB12 (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Babel box[edit]

Fantastic! --BB12 (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Reply[edit]

Hi BB12!

I'm really interested in working on Pipil entries here in Wiktionary. I've been using this site for a long time now and have some knowledge about creation and edition of entries, and the Wikipedia markup language. However, I would appreciate some mentoring or help. Pipil is an endangered language and I would like to help with its recovery.

Thanks! Frankjh (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If you need any additional help along the way, feel free to ask me as well. Is there anything specific you want help with now? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
One thing that I'd like to do is translate the BabelBox on your userpage into Pipil. Is "Ini takat weli kitaketza yek Nawat." correct? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Please verify that Template:ppl-personal pronouns is correct, and if it is, add it in a ====See also==== section at the bottom of entries that are personal pronouns. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC) (I added it at taja so you can see how it's done.) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, thanks! That's perfect. I will add it to the rest. For the BabelBox translation, I would rather say "Ini takat weli taketza yek ne Nawataketzalis", which literally translates as "This man/person can speak well the Nawat Language". --Frankjh (talk) 04:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I see, that's definitely a better translation. Now I realize what my mistakes were. Thanks!
Also, if there are dialectal differences in pronunciation, please distinguish which dialect of Pipil you are giving the pronunciation for. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I give the "standard" pronunciation without any specification, and just distinguish when I give a more specific dialectal pronunciation. Should I also specify when I give just the standard pronunciation? —This unsigned comment was added by Frankjh (talkcontribs).
Yes, always distinguish. You can just name the towns in which a certain pronunciation can be heard. Please format the dialectal notes with {{a}}, like I did at takat. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You should also consider adding etymologies to the Nahuatl forms, if I am correct in assuming that Pipil is derived from Nahuatl. For how to format them, see my edit to siwat. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Pipil is not really derived from Nahuatl (which usually means "Classical Nahuatl"). They come from the same language family and are closely related, but they are considered different "nahuan" dialects. I'm afraid I can't provide the etymologies of all the words I'm submitting, but I will try to. Thanks! --Frankjh (talk) 05:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
My mistake. I will trust your knowledge of this; see siwat again for how I fixed it. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
No worries. The "Compare" is actually really helpful. Thanks! --Frankjh (talk) 05:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
By 'Standard' do you mean the dialect of Izalco? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
By 'Standard' I meant the pronunciation that is mostly taught to non-native speakers, which coincides with the Izalco dialect to some extent. To be honest, my knowledge of the dialectal varieties of Pipil is quite limited. --Frankjh (talk) 05:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
That's OK, then. Don't worry, my knowledge is a lot more limited than yours :) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Please don't add a 'See also' section if you have nothing to put in it. Also, isn't nech- a prefix, not a pronoun? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was going to add a chart similar to the one you created for personal pronouns, but with object markers instead, as I just did in nech-. And, it is indeed a suffix, but with a pronominal function. Should I change its category to suffix anyways? --Frankjh (talk) 06:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I think so. Turkish works similarly, and that's the method we use there. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
prefix*, I meant. Ok, I'll change that. Thanks for letting me know. --Frankjh (talk) 06:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

When you create new entries, you should put {{also}} at the top with very similar-looking terms so that users don't get lost. For example, see what I did at tech- and tech. Now, each one points at the other one.
Anyway, keep up the good work! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the help, I'll do that. :) --Frankjh (talk) 21:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm planning to create conjugation templates for each class of Pipil verbs. To see how it might look, check out an entry like Italian mangiare (section 'Inflection'). Click on the [edit] tab to see how easy it is to input. I think my sources are complete, but if you have time to create a table for me, that would be amazing. I'll start with Class II. Thanks for all the work --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:31, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that'd be really amazing. I made a table here for Class II verbs, where the tilde is the stem.
Tense naja taja yaja tejemet anmejemet yejemet
Present ni~ ti~ ~ ti~t an~t ~t
Subjunctive ma ni~ ma shi~ ma ~ ma ti~kan ma shi~kan ma ~kan
Past ni~k ti~k ~k ti~ket an~ket ~ket
Perfect ni~tuk ti~tuk ~tuk ti~tiwit an~tiwit ~tiwit
Future* ni~s ti~s ~s ti~sket an~sket ~sket
Conditional ni~skia ti~skia ~skia ti~skiat an~skiat ~skiat
Pluperfect* ni~tuya ti~tuya ~tuya ti~tuyat an~tuyat ~tuyat
Cond. Perf.* ni~tuskia ti~tuskia ~tuskia ti~tuskiat an~tuskiat ~tuskiat
Imperative shi~ ti~kan shi~kan

*This tenses are rarely used in spoken Pipil. (Campbell, Lyle. The Pipil Language of El Salvador. Mouton Publishers, 1985, p. 68-70)

Let me know if that works. Btw, how do you create the verb conjugation templates? Thanks --Frankjh (talk) 06:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Perfect! Expect a finished product in a couple days (I'm currently on holiday, visiting family). I'll make this one, and then we can build the next one together. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok, thank you! (I made a little correction on the subjunctive for yaja. The "ma" was missing) --Frankjh (talk) 07:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I just want to say how amazed I am with all this progress. It's wonderful! --BB12 (talk) 08:31, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! All the support I've gotten is amazing. I hope more Pipil-speakers/learners join. —This unsigned comment was added by Frankjh (talkcontribs).

OK, I built {{ppl-conj-2}}. Due to its internal workings, you can only see how it works on a real page, so take a look at nemi#Conjugation. Make sure that everything is correct, and then we can build the next template together based on this one. Thanks --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! This is just great! It works perfectly and everything is correct. I'm afraid that nemi is not a Class II verb, though. It's Class I. But I just created the entry for weli (a Class II verb, although the imperative might not have much sense for it) and the template is excellent. Thank you (again)! :) --Frankjh (talk) 06:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
My mistake. Let's do Class III next. I'm going from least complicated to most complicated, so that you get some markup practice.
When you look at the code in [[Template:ppl-conj-2}} (same style as {{it-conj}} for Italian), you'll notice that I used {{PAGENAME}} a lot. It's the equivalent of the tildes in your table, because it extracts the page title. Here, for example, it produces Frankjh. You'll also notice that I used {{l|ppl|whatever}}. That template automatically formats a link that looks like [[whatever#Pipil|whatever]]. Now, in Class III, the full lemma form is not present in all the inflected forms; just the stem is. So the perfect of tajtani is tajtantuk, not *tajtanituk. Thus the stem is tajtan. That will need to be put in as the first argument, which is the part the comes after a pipe ( | ) when you call the template. Within the template code, the first argument is treated as {{{1}}}. Try copy-pasting the code from {{ppl-conj-2}} into {{ppl-conj-3}} and then fixing it with the information I've given you. I'll help you if you have problems. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:15, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the guidance! I just created {{ppl-conj-3}}, and it works perfectly. I will try to do Class IV and then Class I, though I'm afraid I'd need at least 5 different templates for this one, since there are some allophonic mutations in it. Is there a way to include all those specific mutations in a single template (they're very straightforward)? Or should I create separate templates? --Frankjh (talk) 19:46, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
The mutations will take a little more work, which is why I left Class I for last. I think I'll do that one. Can you give me a table like you did the first time? (Or, if you want to learn how, I can explain my plans for dealing with the mutations. It gets more complicated, because MediaWiki doesn't always do string manipulation too well.) Remember to add documentation. See Template:ppl-conj-3/doc and the edit I made to the template itself. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Can you please create the Class I template as if the mutations didn't exist? I'll add it in myself once you've done that (it will require a second parameter and the use of #switch, which I can explain if you want). Also, be sure to create Template:ppl-conj-4/doc! Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:23, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
I added mutations. See {{ppl-conj-1}} for how to use it. Please test it on a mutating verb and a non-mutating one, and tell me if there are any mistakes. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
It works perfectly. I just did a minor edit because I had missed a letter in the one I did. Thank you! I think I get how the #switch works now. And btw, I'm afraid all these templates work only for intransitive verbs. For transitive verbs conjugation another template might be required for each class, I don't know. The only difference would be marking the presence of an object index with the 3rd-person singular object marker, "ki-", between the subject marker and the verb, as in "ni-k-chiwa" (I do it). Does that need a separate template, or can that be done with the same one? Thanks --Frankjh (talk) 06:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
#switch, #if, and the rest of them are called parser functions, and understanding how to use them is integral to writing templates. If you're curious, there's a list, with all the behaviors, at mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions. By the way, the reason I put {{{3|}}} instead of just {{{3}}} is because if there is no third argument (i.e., if the verb is non-mutating), the template won't fail but will act as if the third argument is a blank space. That means that you don't actually have to put m for mutating verbs - you can put anything!
We can do transitivity with the same templates. This will require one more argument for each template, though. So the choice is yours: do you want to type more if it's transitive, or if it's intransitive?
As a final side note, you don't need to type "{{term|ki-#Pipil|ki-}}" because just typing {{term|ki-|lang=ppl}} works equally well. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)