User talk:Makaokalani/2007-2009

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Dates for US men's names[edit]

I don't know where you get your data from, but in the 1840 US federal census there were 7,689 people called Adam - but you say it starts in 1970! SemperBlotto 16:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The data comes from Social Security Administration, and concerns the years 1880 - 2005. The periods listed refer to the decades when at least 0.5 per cent of the gender group bore the name. I will specify it in the article when I get the data written down. Glad to know that somebody is interested. Makaokalani, 30 March 2007.


Etymology is an L3 header, it goes inside a language section. (Which section does it apply to? if both, it gets repeated) Robert Ullmann 14:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Same thing for References: it goes inside a language section (see Ada) Robert Ullmann 14:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I've corrected those two names. The etymology of European given names is usually the same in many languages, but I'm too lazy to repeat it, so I'll limit myself to English entries. I'm a complete idiot concerning computers, and have no time to learn (Libraries give a limited time for each user). Couldn't somebody make a ready format for proper nouns?
What should I do about Annie? Somebody has made it redirect to "annie", and I don't know how to correct it.--Makaokalani 12:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The same problem with Destiny(popular given name today)/destiny.--Makaokalani 13:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC) And Frances!--Makaokalani 13:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
At the top of the page, is says "redirected from xx", click on that link and it will take you back to the redirect page, which you can edit. I fixed donna/Donna, pls fix destiny etc? Thanks! Robert Ullmann 15:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


Please do not ever blank entries. Use {{delete}} instead. Thanks! --Connel MacKenzie 22:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)



Hello, and welcome to Wiktionary. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk (discussion) and vote pages using four tildes, like this: ~~~~, which automatically produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the beer parlour or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Connel MacKenzie 22:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Old Norse o[edit]

Which one are you looking for? ǫ or ð ? Something else?

There is a trick if you know the code point: say I want U+1ECF: LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH HOOK ABOVE; I type in the entry window ỏ ỏ and then preview. Then I can copy the character from the preview window back into the edit window. To get a page title, edit the sandbox or something, make a link, follow the link from the preview (doesn't need to be saved). The "Old English" in the edit menu has some too. Robert Ullmann 11:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking for the ö as in Björn "bear" ( I'm writing in Swedish now). The first letter you wrote looks like a square in my computer ( this is a library) so I could never check if I got it right.

I'm an elderly person who doesn't understand computers. Thank you for trying to help, my time is running out. I'll try what you advise on Monday or then I'll just leave out words with this difficult letter...--Makaokalani 11:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Eureka: Bjǫrn, bjǫrg, fjǫrðr, vǫlr. The blue link proves that this is the right little square. Now I must take care and not mix it up with other little squares.--Makaokalani 09:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


Hi Makaokalani. I see that you have been here for quite a while and made lots of useful contributions. Would you mind if I nominated you to be an administrator? Dmcdevit·t 06:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I had to find out what an administrator really is. You can see from my talk page that I have no computer skills. I could not give much advice to newcomers, I'm normally in the receiving end.
If it's easier for others that I push the delete button myself, instead of using the "delete" template, then I'm ready to stand for an admin. It's no trouble to me sending messages. The "delete" button would probably be the only one I'd use. I'm grateful to everybody who fights vandalism, but that job doesn't inspire me. Given name entries are a favorite target for a silly sort of vandalism. I revert it whenever I see it. Usually others have wiped it out almost instantly.
Whatever my status is, I cannot do much more than I do now. The library allows a maximum 3 x 3 hours per week anyway. This library is adjacent to a high school, and full of teenagers playing computer games. Suppose some young genius gained access to my nice new buttons? Is it enough to delete the page history with one click, as the librarian taught me? It might be simpler and safer for everybody if I remain an ordinary user.--Makaokalani 16:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not concerned that you aren't a person with computer skills; many of us aren't. :-) The tools are also not an expectation that you'll change your editing habits or adopt vandalism-fighting, they are just a benefit in your everyday editing. (For the same reason, your level of activity is also not a concern to me). The editing from a public computer is not something I had considered before. I had assumed that as long as you log off after you are finished, there is no real risk at all. Perhaps you are right though. We could ask the techies for advice, but if you are not very interested in becoming an admin anyway, I'll not press the point. Keep up the good work, in any case! Dmcdevit·t 05:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Most library accounts have extra cookie-thwacking stuff built in, usually. Once the member's library card is removed, they get logged out and cookies wiped. So, unless someone successfully loads a keylogger (highly unlikely) on a library computer, no worries. Even if someone does, a Wiktionary sysop is a fairly low-profile target. (Unlike, say, a Wikipedia sysop password.) In short, I don't see any problem at all with being a sysop, even when the majority of sessions are in a public setting. --Connel MacKenzie 16:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Nobody uses a library card here. They just go and sit at the computer. I'm happy with my present status. Thanks for the offer anyway. I'd like to add that I enjoy editing here, and most people seem likable and well-informed.--Makaokalani 15:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


I added this name today (an Italian friend has given it to her new baby) but I'm sure that it isn't really English (definitely not Italian). Should it be defined as Latvian? I assume (with no evidence) that it is a form of Vera. SemperBlotto 13:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it English either. I will check my dictionaries at home. Your friend should be more careful about naming her baby:) --Makaokalani 13:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Irish female given names, Category:Scottish male given names, Category:Scottish female given names[edit]

What did you have in mind when you created these - English given names used in Ireland or Scotland? ( Leslie is actually used in France, for example). They seem pointless since other subcategories of given names are by origin. And they are a bad example because people keep creating categories starting with "Xxxn given names" instead of "xx:Given names".

Do you think you could delete these three (leave the 3 existing pages in the main category), like you deleted Category:English given names? I've been adding your topic cat-templates to given name categories and they work fine.--Makaokalani 16:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

They were originally for names used in those countries, but the categories do cause confusion. I'm happy for you to get rid of these categories.--Williamsayers79 18:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Given name template[edit]

Hi! I've modified {{given name}} to make it more consistent with others, and probably easier to use, not having to omit arguments and such. See the documentation.

The important change is using lang=(code) instead of the 3rd parameter with the ":".

The existing forms still work the same way, so you needn't worry about those entries. We will use some automation to standardize them later; you shouldn't waste time doing edits for that; much better you continue all the good work you are doing (very good ;-).

This will also make it easier to re-arrange categories automatically in the future.

I added Barack ... Thanks again for your work on these! Robert Ullmann 14:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


You're missing the point. I wasn't disputing the fact – rather pointing out that it is a US perspective, and ONLY a US perspective. I just had a quick look at other name origin sites and some even disagree with you even from a US POV. [1] even claims "Madonna is a popular female first name … (source: 1990 U.S. Census)". Popularity is not normally put in the definitions so I have removed it once again. If you still disagree with my comments, please put it under Requests for Verification.--Dmol 11:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Bible quotes[edit]

See the change I made to Prisca, if you add the parameters to the template you get a Wikisource link ;-) Robert Ullmann 14:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Fine! I'm getting smarter and smarter!--Makaokalani 14:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


Very good! Essential quotation ;-).

Note I've converted all the existing uses of {given name} to uses lang=xx instead of xx:, I trust it hasn't been confusing? We can then at some point revisit the category naming w/o having to do a lot of work. Robert Ullmann 12:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Damian, Kiran[edit]

Hi, I added the original Chaucer to Damian. The translation is horrid; there are two serious changes in meaning in just the four lines. And it needs translation why? because the language is a bit archaic? Seems to me the original would suit fine. On Kiran, I knew one in secondary school, and IIRC the entry is essentially correct. (that being as far from authoritative as you are likely to get ;-) Robert Ullmann 13:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I deleted the translation for Damian. But many names are spelled in an odd way in the original: Emelye, Alisoun, that's why I put in translations. --Makaokalani 13:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


Out of old habbit I always reply where the discussions start (though that's not the en.wikt habbit). Therefore I replied over at my talk page :) --Eivind (t) 13:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


I do add Latin entries! It's just that I'm adding Galician right now, since it's underrepresented (fewer than 50 entries when I started adding). I added over 150 new Latin entries last April and am working with Semper Blotto to add regular verb conjugated forms.

Quotations should always precede Translations, even if it seems somehow less useful for certain entries. We keep consistent section order both for our users and for the bots who help with cleanup. Keep in mind that in some languages, such as LAtin, citations for personal names can actually be very useful. Latin proper names inflect just like other nouns, and Latin personal names come in three major types. Eevn for given names in English, a citation can be useful for an English learner from someplace like China or Japan, where name order is reversed (surname first). --EncycloPetey 15:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

OK. I'll follow the ELE from now on:-)--Makaokalani 15:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


Sorry, was fixing something for most of a day. What should I look at/what needs doing? Templates? Robert Ullmann 15:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess there is nothing to do before I have created all the new given name categories? Then you'll do the magic that redirects the names. Am I wording the categories right?
I think surnames could be grouped by language of origin too, but I'll write something in the Beer parlour first.--Makaokalani 15:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that looks good, is a matter of using "French " instead of "fr:" and so in which is what you're doing. It isn't necessary to make sure you have every single one set up, we can always look at Special:Wantedcategories after to check. (We'll probably have missed some anyway, is good to look at that once in a while.)
Surnames are all over the place; there are a lot of CJKV entries that are "defined" as "a surname", or "used as a surname"; I'd like to go find all those and see about classifying them. (the {{surname}} template is a subst: template, should be fixed, see my comments there) But I don't think the category naming is a big issue, we can just do it right. Robert Ullmann 15:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


As requested. (:-) Robert Ullmann 14:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it looks fine! Thank you Santa Claus. There are no blue or red links, and the category doesn't come in the bottom, but I guess you haven't finished yet.--Makaokalani 14:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
What should be linked? The category will only show if it is on a main namespace page. When used for (e.g.) examples on the talk page, it doesn't categorize. Robert Ullmann 15:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I mean [2] this. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Or is it this library? The computers have been misbehaving all day. And on second thoughts ( whine, whine ) there's no need to say "from Middle English" in the definition, only in the category. --Makaokalani 16:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Ah, a stray tag I can't use inside the category link. Fixed. I took the "from ..." bit out of the display line, just used in the category. Robert Ullmann 16:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Italian given names[edit]

Hi there! I am not into onomastics, but I've never heard Alanno and Alassandro as given names; according to Wikipedia Alanno is a municipality near w:Pescara, while Alassandro is probably a misspelling of Alessandro. As regards to Gianni, Wikipedia says it is a distinct given name and properly an "hypocorism" of Giovanni. --Barmar 07:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Norwegian given names and surnames[edit]

Terve! Just so you know it, I always reply at the talk page where the discussion started :) --Eivind (t) 13:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm now finished with the Norwegian female given names ... went fast when I could use my bot (: --Eivind (t) 18:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Moving pages[edit]

Entire pages are not supposed to be moved by copy-paste but rather with the "move" function. This way their history is preserved, which is relevant in terms of the GFDL. After the move you can nominate the residual redirect for speedy deletion. -- Gauss 20:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I had never even noticed the move button. Thanks! --Makaokalani 13:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
However, you cannot move Category: pages, so the move button wasn't there, and you will have to do copy/paste ... you can move the category talk pages. Robert Ullmann 13:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I assume Gauss meant the talk page of Category:Faroese male given names.--Makaokalani 13:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. Sorry for the confusion because I didn't mention it. Thanks for working so hard on categorisation! -- Gauss 22:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Simba, Suraj[edit]

Indeed does mean strength in Shona, as well as lion in Swahili. There is a beer here that uses the (Swahili) slogan "Imara kama simba", the strength of the lion. Simba should be in Shona, not English. Is quite common. One of the competitors to Mugabe was w:Simba Makoni.

Suraj is from Hindi, सुरज Robert Ullmann 14:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:la:Agnomen, Cognomen, Gens, Praenomen[edit]

These are parts of speech, so how would you like to have them renamed? "Category:Latin gens names", maybe, but what is the plural for others? I will move the pages if you choose the new names. What about creating "Category:Latin personal names" and putting them all there, so that a person who doesn't know the Roman naming system can find them?

Ruakh didn't seem to take our arguments on male/masculine very seriously...The surname categories will be renamed too, so please tell in the BP if you have strong ideas about them. I've always meant to ask you, just which medieval European languages are you interested in, in your given names hobby? Etymology only, or also statistics? I'm no etymologist, and I'm always happy when somebody adds a good etymology. And I'm mostly concerned about statistics since ca. 1800, because before that, Finnish names were always recorded in Swedish or Latin.--Makaokalani 14:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

In terms of onomastics, I've studied and own a significant number of books each on English, Dutch, German, Hungarian, Czech, Polish, Croat, Slovene, Russian, Romanian, and Latin personal names. I have a one or two books each on Welsh, Irish, Scottish (Scots mostly), Old Norse, Italian, Spanish, Lithuanian, and Finnish names. My focus is primarily on the use of names between about 1150 and 1650 (except for Latin, of course), but I own some books on modern names for purposes of comparison and interpretation. My onomastic interests include etymology, statistics, orthography, and name construction patterns (such as determining when bynames in a region began to be inherited, and whether women took their husband's name upon marriage). I also have a few books on English, Dutch, German, and Hungarian place names.
I've been wrestling with the question of how to rename the Latin names categories for a long time (it was one of the first category problems I noticed on Wiktionary, back when I first started here). Give me another day or so to think it over, and I'll state a preference. --EncycloPetey 17:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Usage notes in definitions.[edit]

You missed the point of my last edit on Sheila. These comments belong in the usage notes, not in the definition as you had placed it originally.--Dmol 00:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC).

Please move them to the usage notes, then - don't delete! I don't have all the names I've edited in my watchlist. Names don't really have a meaning so extra information will not mess up the definition. SemperBlotto includes etymologies in surname definitions, for brevity. But it's a matter of opinion.--Makaokalani 14:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Surnames from India[edit]

Every so often somebody tries to add Indian surnames that are the names of castes - never with any formatting, and in dreadful English. They get deleted. But we could really do with some of them. As far as I can tell there is a sort of hierarchy of names and subnames - if you ever get the time, it would be good to add them properly. SemperBlotto 15:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't know the first thing about Indian surnames, but if they are grouped in this category, someone wiser might find them and create subcategories. I've seen the surname appendices - possibly the surnames should be grouped by caste and religion, besides by language. I'll put any Indian surnames I come across in this new category. In my opinion, Indian names in Roman script are "English" since English is an official language of India. --Makaokalani 15:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


Hi, you have split the translation into two, moving Russian translations into city section? The translations are identical for the city and the first names, there was no need to split into two but if you do, do it cleaner, please :). Anatoli 21:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Two definitions should never be combined in a translation table. We cannot know if they are the same in every language of the world. Did you check each placename you added? The Spanish Wikipedia calls the city Vladímir, you say Vladimiro. The given name translations were added by an anon on 13 January 2009. They could be wrong. I had no time to check them, so I only put in the Russian one, trusting you had got it right.
The Danish cognate of this Slavonic name is Valdemar, but Lenin and Putin and the city are Vladimir in Denmark. Given name "translations" may be cognates or transliterations, but translations of transliterations is going a bit too far...You and Stephen G. Brown had a lively discussion on the talk page of Kirill. Here is some more discussion. My solution would be that transliterations are "Translingual", with a minimal entry, and they be listed as "Descendants" of the original word (Владимир), not in English translation tables. I never knew how complicated names can be until I joined the Wktionary:)--Makaokalani 14:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Makaokalani , you've got the point. Sorry, I did check a few but not all. Anatoli 21:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

On revealing one's identity[edit]

You wrote: "Why the secrecy? If I were accused of being Wonderfool, I would put my real name on my user page, together with a list of the places I have lived in since 2004." I assumed this was a sarcastic comment, but ever since I've had this nagging feeling that it wasn't. Just in case: I don't think that making one's identity completely obvious is a good idea on wikis, because some people get disproportionately upset about wiki projects and try to attack the administrators by slandering them on the Internet and so forth. You can see plenty of this on sites like Wikitruth and Dramatica. (Okay, Wikitruth is probably somewhat accurate. Heh.) Equinox 21:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you mistook it for sarcasm. I still mean every word of it. Atelaes, SemperBlotto, Robert Ullmann and many others here have revealed their identity, so it cannot be as harmful as you think. My real name is Sinikka Nevanlinna, by the way. --Makaokalani 13:07, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Here is something you can correct[edit]

Peeking in the Category:Japanese female given names I saw this:

K Karin Kiri

Y Yuki Yuri

あ Aoi 亜華実

And this it what I see in Revision history of "Karin"

(cur) (prev) 11:25, 17 November 2008 (Talk) (1,287 bytes) (undo)

Maybe you can correct this. Thank you. --Alasdair 12:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Automatic table of contents[edit]

Hello. According to our conversation from one month ago, perhaps you would like to know:

  1. If a template named "xx-categoryTOC" exists, any category created by {{namecatboiler}} will use it.
  2. The "xx" is the code of the language; for example, Category:Spanish male given names would use {{es-categoryTOC}}.
  3. The xx-categoryTOC only appears if the category in question has 201 or more members, as you agreed.
  4. And finally, the rules above also work for {{poscatboiler}} and {{affixcatboiler}}, in case you are interested.

--Daniel. 18:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Fine. Thank you. --Makaokalani 11:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Please undo your removal in Appendix:Czech given names, because you delete many precious additions[edit]

(huidig) (vorige) 21 sep 2009 12:17 Makaokalani (Overleg | bijdragen) (13.595 bytes) (removed needless duplicate list with links, old nickname grouping is better, links remain in page history if needed) (ongedaan maken)

You make an error by deleting my list. Many additions I made have been lost. Those two lists are no duplications. The former list with Czech given names was the basic for the one I created. While editing my list I add a lot of Czech names from other sources. So I would beg you to undo your removal. Thank you, --Alasdair 14:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The names are not lost; they remain in the page history. You can clean up this appendix yourself. See the examples I have made at Appendix:French given names and Appendix:Swedish given names, and the many explanations on your talk page. Add a list named, e.g. "Rare names outside Czech given name categories yet" and copy there all the names that 1.) are not in the list of common names, and 2.) are not among the ca. 400 names entered by Dan Polansky in the Czech given name categories. Good luck! --Makaokalani 13:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Butting in here months later: I endorse the existence of Appendix:Czech given names in its full long format, and have commented to that effect on Appendix_talk:Czech_given_names#Returning_back_the_full_page. --Dan Polansky 16:04, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Urdo names[edit]

Hi, I wasn wondering if you would like to help formatting and making the Urdo name lists remaining at Wiktionary:Transwiki_log/Year_2007_in_Process into proper name appendice. If you don't have time, at least can you recommend a preferred name appendice from which I can emulate a format? My goal is by year end. Thank you . Goldenrowley 21:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to help , only neither one of us knows Urdu. Appendix:Arabic given names and Appendix:Hebrew given names show a way of listing names in non-Latin script. I cleaned up formatting of the letter A, linking the Urdu scripts too. But I don't know what the question marks mean, how to link double names (Abu Something),whether all letters are included in these five transwikis, or what is the right order of combining the transwikis. Or there might be some horrible errors that I am blind to. I'll leave a message to User:Dijan .--Makaokalani 16:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you so much for your reply and thoughts... I was thinking to make one appendix out of all of them, and missing letters aren't show stoppers... as for horrible errors I can tag it for an expert to read. Goldenrowley 20:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I've done what I could do, with the set. The question marks probably mean the original characters were not understood and bastardized by someone's word processor (and just needs expert help). ^It looks like Dijan fixed all of the question marks.^ See Appendix:Urdu Muslim given names. Goldenrowley 00:38, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciations for names?[edit]

Hello. If you know IPA, enPR, or SAMPA, would you mind adding pronunciations to the name entries you create? Thanks, L☺g☺maniac 16:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know them! I'm grateful to everybody who adds pronunciations. --Makaokalani 16:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Alrighty, just wondering :) L☺g☺maniac 16:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)