Category talk:Old Prussian lemmas
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For everything spelled with a macron (e.g. Dēiwas/Dēiws, piēncts) as it looks like reconstruction, neo-Old Prussian. See also: User talk:Beobach972#Old Prussian. --Trothmuse (talk) 08:24, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- I've wondered about our Old Prussian coverage as well, but I'm not sure anyone active here knows enough about the language and its corpus to dare to speak up about it or to be able to answer this rfv satisfactorily. I really am not sure what is to be done; if I had the leisure time right now to research this all on my own I would, but I don't. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 10:48, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe they are. I know that Old Prussian has long vowels, furthermore the Elbing vocabulary, the one online, provides, I think, a reconstruction of words phonetically. The examples above are strange given the other Baltic languages don't have a ē in Lithuanian diẽvas and Latvian dìevs. From what I know, Old Prussian had no phonological development that caused stressed vowels to lengthen, only the opposite, that unstressed long vowels were reduced to simple vowels. 𐌷𐌻𐌿𐌳𐌰𐍅𐌹𐌲𐍃 𐌰𐌻𐌰𐍂𐌴𐌹𐌺𐌹𐌲𐌲𐍃 (talk) 14:31, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
RFV for the following:
- azzaran: EGPV "See Assaran", see assaran
- ballo: EGPV "Stirne Batto"
- dags: see EGPV in dagis
- irma: EGPV "Arm Irmo", TLP "irmo, Arm, Oberarm", see irmo
- kams: EGPV "Bene Bitte" & "Hu͡mele Camus", TLP "camus, Hummel, [..] Voc. 788."
- naguttis: EGPV "Nagel Nagutis", TLP "nagutis, Nagel am Finger"
- pazzuls: EGPV "Nacke Passoles", TLP "pa-ssoles, (pl.?), Nacken"
- salts: "(manuscript forms:) salta" sounds like "salts" is a non-manuscript form, i.e. a reconstruction. TLP "salta, kalt", WBdSG "kalt Salta"
- sirablas: EGPV "Silber Siraplis" - only attested as acc. sirablan, cp. TLP?
- skals: EGPV "Kinne Scalus", TLP "scalus, Kinn"
- sunnis: EGPV "Hunt Sunis", TLP "sunis, Hund", WBdSG "Hundt Songos"
- swerreps: EPGV "Keynhe͡gest Sweriapis", TLP "sweriapis (keynhengest) Voc. 431. ist nunmehr wohl hinreichend klar gelegt als Zuchthengst, Beschäler; es ist das Masc., welches den Femininis poln. [..], böhm. swerzepice, Stute, entspricht; [...] niederrhein. kîen, beschälen [...]"
- August, Daggis, Rags: not in EGPV, TLP, WBdSG.
EGPV = Elbing German-Prussian Vocabulary (by G. H. F. Nesselmann, online with reconstructions); TLP = Thesaurus linguae prussicae (etc.) by G. H. F. Nesselmann; WBdSG = Wörterbuch des Simon Grunau.
BTW RFC for undan and unds, see the comment in unds and in the source of wundan. TLP "wundan, Wasser, Voc. 59., wunda, Gr., vgl. und-s" and "und-s, nom., undan, acc. undas, gen. sg., undans, acc. pl., Wasser; Ench. [..]; wundan, Voc., wunda, Gr. s. dd."
--Trothmuse (talk) 14:43, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Trothmuse: Most of the RFV pressed forthward don't match with the given phonetic reconstruction, so I would say delete. I cound't access the TLP so I can't check those; I have my doubts about WBdSG since it gives a diferent picture from EGPV, two examples are TLP Old Prussian maiʃta (“town”) and EGPV Old Prussian mēstan (“town”), and TLP Old Prussian kayme (“village”) and EGPV (Caymis) Old Prussian *kaimis (“village”).
- If salts isn't attested then it should be deleted; yet an adjective ending with "-a" isn't normal, if the word occurs in a text then it could be the nominative feminine singular, if not then it's either a noun, a adjective given in the feminine nominative or something I'm not quite seeing.
- I guess the real intetion of "masculine singular" was "singular nominative". The EGPV (v)undan maybe be because of the different forms attested in different sources, so we have Old Prussian wunda (“water”) in TLP, while the Enchiridion has Old Prussian unds (“water”).
- One major thing, that I forget to mention, is that Old Prussian, in the Enchiridion, had stress vowels marked by a macron. Therefore if Old Prussian Dēiwas/Dēiws are from the Enchiridion then it's possible that the correct form is Old Prussian Déiwas/Déiws, as in diphthongs the macron served to represented the stressed vowel instead of a real long vowel. Another rule, altough not entirely agreed upon, is that vowels after conants are themselves stressed. 𐌷𐌻𐌿𐌳𐌰𐍅𐌹𐌲𐍃 𐌰𐌻𐌰𐍂𐌴𐌹𐌺𐌹𐌲𐌲𐍃 (talk) 19:38, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- EGPV has wundan (Wasser), caymis (Dorf), mestan (Stat). (v)undan, mēstan are not in EGPV but reconstructions (by V. Mažiulis, added in that online version of EPGV).
- Nesselmann's Die Sprache der alten Preußen (etc.) quotes Grunau too (and adds some remarks in brackets and sometimes mentions Hartknoch's forms), but has another text than the WBdSG. Nesselmann's Grunau has Dewus (Goth), Maysta (Stadt), Cayme (Dorff), Wunda (wassere), Songos (hundt) and not Dewes, Maiʃta [= Maiſta, Maista], kayme, Songos, Wunda as in the WBdSG (or Devus, Maiſta, Caymo, Sangor, Wunda as in Hartknoch's). Nesselmann's TLP (here at another source) has "deywis Voc. 1., dewus Gr." and no Dewes/dewes (or Devus/devus). [1] mentions the existence of at least two manuscript versions of Grunau's ("Göttinger Handschrift", "Königsberger Handschrift") - the Göttinger version probably being unknown to Nesselmann.
- Enchiridion (original, Nesselmann's Die Sprache der alten Preußen (etc.), Die drei catechismen in altpreussischer Sprache (etc.), Trautmann's Die altpreussischen Sprachdenkmäler (etc.)) has tilde in original Fraktur, macron in Antiqua editions. In it, it is (ignoring long s): Deiws/Deiwas (Deiwan, Deiwans) without diacritic, piēncts (other numerals are: pirmois, antars, tīrts, kettwirts, uschts,septmas, asmus, newīnts, dessīmts). That makes the original RFV for all terms with macron obsolete, as for example piēncts is properly attested.
- Also RFV for the following terms with macron:
- --Trothmuse (talk) 21:47, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Right, I normally use the reconstruction by V. Mažiulis instead of the original wording.
- Sorry I mistaken the TLP with WBdSG, in my comment above where it say "TLP" I meant "WBdSG". In any case, from what I can tell they share similar roots, but not the endings, which IMO can be verified by checking them with the other Baltic languages.
- If that’s the case then they should be deleted.
- I haven't been able to verify all of them but for now I haven't found Mārts; kams is probably a reconstruction of "camus". 𐌷𐌻𐌿𐌳𐌰𐍅𐌹𐌲𐍃 𐌰𐌻𐌰𐍂𐌴𐌹𐌺𐌹𐌲𐌲𐍃 (talk) 11:53, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
RFV-resolved for most of the above. Still TBD: I have to add the actual Enchiridion quotes to unds and undan, but they do exist. I want to make a template for that. Also, the various forms of "deiwas"/"deiws" with the macrons aren't attested. However, ignoring capitalization and the macrons, all of those forms are attested. However it's quite a mess at present, with different definitions on the entries instead of using {{alt form}}, and with lots of weird labels like "archaic" and "regional". (What does "archaic" mean exactly? The language is extinct!) 70.172.194.25 19:20, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
These are still open. Nesselmann has it as deiwa-s, deiws (no capital, no macron). So does [2]. But the latter has links to the actual text having Deiwas/Deiws (with capital which makes sense for the God, no macron). --2003:DE:3730:F428:A061:1BF8:AC91:9DAB 01:31, 12 February 2024 (UTC)