Reconstruction talk:Proto-Iranian/cáywaH

Sanskrit

According to Turner, the Sanskrit form is possibly an Iranian loan and hence no IIr etymon. Kwékwlos (talk) 20:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos: It should have been created as a Proto-Iranian entry either way. Could you add Turner as a source in the etymology? --{{victar|talk}} 19:56, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk If I'm moving the entry, you can assume I'm also editing it. --{{victar|talk}} 19:56, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Victar It is not even a Vedic word, only a word used by lexicographers. Actually, it is very common for a word pertaining to a fruit to be a Wanderwort. Kwékwlos (talk) 20:33, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos: Great, but it still needs a source. Please add. Thanks. --{{victar|talk}} 20:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Victar: Take a look: http://sanskritdictionary.com/?q=sevi Kwékwlos (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos: I'm just asking you to add the Turner source. --{{victar|talk}} 21:00, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Victar: Oops, confused Monier-Williams with Turner. I think you can add this:

Turner, Ralph Lilley (1969–1985) “sēvi”, in A Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages, London: Oxford University Press. Kwékwlos (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos: Yep, beat you to it. --{{victar|talk}} 21:20, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Victar, you are a great linguist, but is a semantic shift from "precious; treasure" in Proto-Indo-Iranian to "apple" in Proto-Iranian possible? Also, the etymology has not been referenced-- weird as you are an advocate for giving references in reconstruction entries. —Lbdñk (talk) 15:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk Semantically, it's not really too much of a stretch. If you look at other fruit words, many of them too can canote something "precious", like seen in plum and peach. I would source the entry if I could, but I haven't found a single reconstruction or etymology for it in any of my books, so it's something of a no-man's land. The fact that we have शेव (śéva) though is very intriguing and Sanskrit does have a history of randomly depalatalizing ś to s, so it could also mean that it's instead inherited. --{{victar|talk}} 18:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if the meaning of "apple" was coined in Median. The Medians were prized for their fruits and the Greeks actually used to call lemons "Median apples". --{{victar|talk}} 07:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Hittite/Hattic source/cognate?

@Lbdñk, @Victar, Hittite has 𒊭𒈠𒇻 (ša-ma-lu /šam(a)lu-/, “apple”) and Hattic 𒊭𒀀𒊀𒀜 (ša-a-waₐ-at /šawat/ “apple, apple tree”) (see more info at h₂ébōl). Aren't these quite obvious sources for the Iranian word? --Ferhengvan (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

@Ferhengvan: How is it obvious? For one, the Iranian descends *ḱ-, not *s- (otherwise the Iranian forms would start with h-), and *-ey-, not *-e-, and does not exhibit *-ml-, *-bl-. --{{victar|talk}} 23:00, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

@Victar, Probably not as a cognate but what about as a loanword from Hattic 𒊭𒀀𒊀𒀜 (ša-a-waₐ-at /šawat/) (possibly via another language)? As Hattic was spoken very close to where the speakers of the Proto-Iranian arrived? --Ferhengvan (talk) 23:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

@Ferhengvan: Also impossible because of no *-ay- in the Hattic or *š- in the Iranian. I appreciate the thinking outside the box though. --{{victar|talk}} 23:11, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

@Victar:, Thanks!