Talk:северномакедонски

RFD discussion: January 2022

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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северномакедонски

@Kiril Simeonovski, Atitarev not existing in some other dictionary =/= the word not existing. if it meets CFI then it belongs in here. Also, throwing straight to d seems incorrect here. Vininn126 (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it's clear that this term is attestable and not subject to deletion. Thadh (talk) 21:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Keep upon first glance. Vininn126 (talk) 22:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Kiril Simeonovski: I know this could be sensitive to people opposing or disliking the renaming but the fact is, the official name is now "(Република) Северна Македонија" and it's only right to refer to the official country name as северномакедонски (severnomakedonski). Since the new country name only exists since 2019, the unpopular name or related adjective haven't gained much ground. The term is attestable in Macedonian texts but it may mean "North Macedonian" in general or historical senses, not necessarily referring to the (new) country name. E.g. "северномакедонски манастири" or "северномакедонски говори", "современата северномакедонска дијалектна ситуација". A historical quote: "Со населување на Сермесијаните-христијани и гркофони во опустените северномакедонски простори, Византија планирала да ја зајакне одбраната". If you search thoroughly through Macedonian resources (e.g. Google books), you will find that the term is clearly attestable. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I don't object the derived adjective in other languages as long as it's in common use. The problem is that it doesn't exist in Macedonian with the same meaning. The colloquial meaning of "северномакедонски" is something related to the northern part of the country, and this was well-established in the language long before the name change. All examples which you mention are relational to the geographic region rather than the country.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, that doesn't seem to change the fact that this seems to be a word... Vininn126 (talk) 22:35, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vininn126, Kiril Simeonovski: Yes, it is a word and inclusion in dictionaries is only a part of the verification. We have WT:CFI. The entry must be kept as attestable. @Kiril Simeonovski, you went ahead and changed the definition, which is the compromise I was going to suggest. I have questions, though. How would a politically correct (if it's the right term here) announcer or a diplomat talk about the North Macedonian government, president, athletes, delegation, etc., when an adjective would be required, especially when accuracy is important, e.g. Greek-North Macedonian talks? The web searches suggest that the term is used to mean "North Macedonian" (related to the country, also mixed with Serbian or Bulgarian, etc. texts) but there may not be sufficient Macedonian usage for that sense. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

How you mean that this term is attested, as in the instructions here that term should be: 1. clearly widespread use, or 2. use in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year (different requirements apply for certain languages). So, please provide sources about above, as you make a statement that this is not subject to deletion. --Ehrlich91 (talk) 22:05, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vininn126, Thadh: I'm a native speaker of Macedonian. The only meaning which this word may have is a geographic relation to the northern part of the country (see Northern Macedonia), but then we also need entries for источномакедонски, јужномакедонски and западномакедонски in relation to Eastern Macedonia, Southern Macedonia and Western Macedonia, respectively. Note that we don't have entries for adjectives relational to geographic regions (e.g. there's no entry for Eastern American even though it's in use to refer to w:en:Eastern United States).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Kiril Simeonovski: About the first part: Sure, create them (if they're attestable)! About the second part, that's because the rules on idiomaticity are different for multiword terms than for (true) compounds. See WT:SOP on that. Thadh (talk) 22:25, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

In fact, all four words are attestable in relation to the geographical regions they point to. The question is if the attestability is sufficient for having entries (Many derogatory words are in more common use than this one. Shall we have entries on each of them?). I'll have to create entries for the other three and correct the meaning of this one.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:42, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Kiril Simeonovski: The meaning is correct AFAICT: it is a relational adjective for the north of Macedonia. And yes, all these should be created if attested, and they aren't only because the editors haven't gotten to it. Thadh (talk) 22:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh: I've changed the meaning. The quote you added is a good example of its correct meaning: "северномакедонски" (North Macedonian) is used to refer to the dialects of the Macedonian language spoken in the northern parts of the region of Macedonia.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

* Delete We don't have entries for adjectives relational to geographic regions of countries, unless they appear in dictionaries of the languages native to those regions (e.g. süddeutsch and norddeutsch). --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:18, 10 January 2022 (UTC) I agree the entry to be kept with its changed meaning and also create entries for the similar words referring to the geographic parts in the other three directions.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:56, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Doesn’t македонски (makedonski) ever include parts of the now Hellenic Republic? Particularly in historical usage. Fay Freak (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: In Macedonian, we make a clear distinction between the present and ancient civilisations, so we use "старомакедонски" (roughly "Ancient Macedonian"), "старогрчки" (roughly "Ancient Greek"), "староримски" (roughly "Ancient Roman") and "староегипетски" (roughly "Ancient Egyptian") to refer to things related to the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome and Ancient Egypt, respectively. However, since we use "македонски" in relation to the region of Macedonia, which has also substantial parts in Greece and Bulgaria, it can also refer to parts of these countries.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but there is still Greek Macedonia, and it is hard to imagine that even in the stupid naming dispute nobody called the whole region Macedonian or Greek parts of it Macedonian, in Macedonian language. Fay Freak (talk) 23:35, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Anyway, where do you Macedonians read your laws? There must be some statutes about government organisation wherein some authorities are named северномакедонски respectively its gendered forms. I have found the issues of the official gazette but not every issue even includes македонски (makedonski). Plus the adjective must occur in legal texts in general.

The fact that you don’t find the official demonym of a European country in four years via Google Books is but a nice culmination to demonstrate the absurdity of the attestation practice of Wiktionary relying on a corpus cutout by a Californian Big Tech company. Even if I know what “durable” sources are I don’t know how to get them for Macedonian, without making a trip to Northern Macedonia, and still it wouldn’t be a corpus. Fay Freak (talk) 00:12, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

It seems the North Macedonian government is very sensitive about other countries to refer North Macedonians (Северномакедонци) or anything related to North Macedonia (северномакедонски) as well: [1]. It is, no doubt, a sensitive topic for Macedonians. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:26, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@Anatoli T The definition you used for the term северномакедонски is derogatory and offensive, including the terms Северномакедонец/Северномакедонка and North Macedonian, in the same sense. Gorec (talk) 01:56, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@Горец: Do you mean the article or the term itself? If you have supporting evidence, you can provide a new sense (on a separate line) with quotations. If you're going by web searches only (as opposed to Google book searches) then the search will also confirm non-derogatory senses as well. All of them are very recent apparently, since the renaming only happened in 2019.

I'm sure this topic will come up over and over again, if even the (North) Macedonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs is watching that nobody in the media or politics uses "северномакедонски" or "Северномакедонци" in the country or outside - link (in Macedonian)

BTW, Bulgarians apparently already adopted the term "северномакедонски". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fay Freak, Atitarev: There are no laws preventing the use of the adjective "северномакедонски" in relation to the country, but it's not used because of several reasons, none of which has anything to do with the government institutions. Firstly, the word has had a different meaning in the language long before the name change. Secondly, adjectives derived from the name of the country have never been used as much as for other countries (Note that Macedonian is a language native to the region of Macedonia (see map of Macedonian dialects) with very strong tendency to associate the derived adjective with the Macedonian culture spread across the entire region, so "македонски" was not in common use even before the name change and possessive constructions were used most of the time instead.). Thirdly, people find it diminishable and derogatory, so they tend to completely avoid it. That being said, when someone uses adjectives derived from words and phrases containing Macedonia (e.g. "македонски" (Macedonian), "јужномакедонски" (Southern Macedonian), "долномакедонски" (Lower Macedonian) etc.), the main connotation is cultural, historical and regional. As for the use of the derived adjective in other languages, it's completely irrelevant for the Macedonian language. The only relevant thing to take into consideration is that a Google search on "северномакедонски" will mislead you because the same word is used in Bulgarian.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:28, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

It looks like the issue is resolved, in that it has been voted to be kept by the person originally wanting to delete it. Closing the issue. Vininn126 (talk) 09:56, 11 January 2022 (UTC)