Talk:מיטן
Latest comment: 8 years ago by Wikitiki89 in topic Middle
Middle
[edit]@Metaknowledge: I think this is actually just the dative of מיט (mit) used in some fossilized expressions. --WikiTiki89 18:07, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Wikitiki89: There are at least three ways to argue against that. One is that is simply doesn't make sense to treat it as a prepositional form now; Yiddish doesn't stack prepositions, so how would you interpret אין מיטן גאַס ("in the middle of the street")? Those phrases are by no means fossilised, I might add.
- The second is that all the lemmings agree that it's a noun and give it a headword.
- The third is that it has a (much less used) plural form, not to mention a clear gender. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:14, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's prepositional only in the sense that it comes after prepositions, not in the sense that it is a preposition. So the real question is whether it is ever used without a preceding preposition I would explain אין מיטן גאַס exactly the same as I would explain אַ שטיקל ברויט. But the plural is a bit problematic. Can you give some examples of its use? When I get home, I'll quote you what I got this from. --WikiTiki89 20:34, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed, a shtikl broyt is an example of the same kind of noun-noun cluster. I note that you haven't addressed the lemmings or the gender, but here's an example of the plural (1964, Noah Goldberg, Vildgroz):
- די מיטנס פון אָט די לאַנגע זעגן האָבן די שמידן דערנאָך אַ לאַנגע צייט געפיילט מיט דרייקאַנטיקע פיילן...
- The smiths filed the middles of the long saws there after a long time with triangular files...
- —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:53, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah sorry I forgot to mention the gender issue. I assume what you mean is that מיטן can be clearly demonstrated to be masculine, while מיט is feminine? If that's the case, can you give me an example that shows that מיטן is masculine? As for lemmings, they don't really prove anything. I'm beginning to reach the conclusion that it may have started off as a fossilization of the dative of מיט in expressions like אין מיטן, but then developed into a full-fledged noun of its own. --WikiTiki89 21:13, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just look at google books:"דעם מיטן" and you'll see what I mean. Yes, I'm pretty sure that was its origin, but I don't know of a source to back that up. And I have advocated that the lemmings should be subject to healthy doubt, but you seemed to have a lot of faith in them, so I thought it was worth bringing up. (After all, they're right far more than they're wrong.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have enough faith in the lemmings that without any evidence to the contrary, I would err on the side of trusting them, but in this case there is evidence to the contrary. Now most of the results at google books:"דעם מיטן" actually use מיטן in the sense of "with the", but ביז דעם מיטן פונעם 13־טן, for example uses it in the relevant sense. I'm not sure how common this is however, and gender variation is common between dialects. --WikiTiki89 21:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- What evidence to the contrary? All I see is evidence in support. (And yes, it's not common on its own, and yes, it's not unlikely to see some use in the feminine. But I think you have to concede the existence of the noun as documented.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:35, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Of course I have to concede, but that doesn't mean that my original doubts were not valid. The evidence to the contrary is the knowledge of the origin. But yes this evidence does not override some of the evidence you have shown me after the fact. And what I actually meant about gender variation is that it's possible that in ביז דעם מיטן, it could be that מיט is being used in the masculine/neuter, rather than it being a separate word. --WikiTiki89 21:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- I hope I'm not being too abrasive; I've noted that you like to argue a point to completion, and so do I if I think that the other party will accept that. As for your gender comment, I am now somewhat confused by what you're trying to get at. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:34, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- If I didn't enjoy these kinds of arguments, I wouldn't have them. Also, this should be better seen as documenting my thought process to reach a conclusion, rather than arguing against you or the lexicographers. As for gender, I assumed that you were saying that because מיטן is masculine, it cannot be considered a form of מיט, which is feminine; so I'm saying that if מיט can sometimes be masculine (and I don't actually know if that's the case, but it very well could be), then that argument doesn't hold. --WikiTiki89 16:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I hope I'm not being too abrasive; I've noted that you like to argue a point to completion, and so do I if I think that the other party will accept that. As for your gender comment, I am now somewhat confused by what you're trying to get at. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:34, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Of course I have to concede, but that doesn't mean that my original doubts were not valid. The evidence to the contrary is the knowledge of the origin. But yes this evidence does not override some of the evidence you have shown me after the fact. And what I actually meant about gender variation is that it's possible that in ביז דעם מיטן, it could be that מיט is being used in the masculine/neuter, rather than it being a separate word. --WikiTiki89 21:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- What evidence to the contrary? All I see is evidence in support. (And yes, it's not common on its own, and yes, it's not unlikely to see some use in the feminine. But I think you have to concede the existence of the noun as documented.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:35, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have enough faith in the lemmings that without any evidence to the contrary, I would err on the side of trusting them, but in this case there is evidence to the contrary. Now most of the results at google books:"דעם מיטן" actually use מיטן in the sense of "with the", but ביז דעם מיטן פונעם 13־טן, for example uses it in the relevant sense. I'm not sure how common this is however, and gender variation is common between dialects. --WikiTiki89 21:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just look at google books:"דעם מיטן" and you'll see what I mean. Yes, I'm pretty sure that was its origin, but I don't know of a source to back that up. And I have advocated that the lemmings should be subject to healthy doubt, but you seemed to have a lot of faith in them, so I thought it was worth bringing up. (After all, they're right far more than they're wrong.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah sorry I forgot to mention the gender issue. I assume what you mean is that מיטן can be clearly demonstrated to be masculine, while מיט is feminine? If that's the case, can you give me an example that shows that מיטן is masculine? As for lemmings, they don't really prove anything. I'm beginning to reach the conclusion that it may have started off as a fossilization of the dative of מיט in expressions like אין מיטן, but then developed into a full-fledged noun of its own. --WikiTiki89 21:13, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed, a shtikl broyt is an example of the same kind of noun-noun cluster. I note that you haven't addressed the lemmings or the gender, but here's an example of the plural (1964, Noah Goldberg, Vildgroz):
- It's prepositional only in the sense that it comes after prepositions, not in the sense that it is a preposition. So the real question is whether it is ever used without a preceding preposition I would explain אין מיטן גאַס exactly the same as I would explain אַ שטיקל ברויט. But the plural is a bit problematic. Can you give some examples of its use? When I get home, I'll quote you what I got this from. --WikiTiki89 20:34, 10 March 2016 (UTC)