Talk:あど

Proto-Japonic?

@Kwékwlos, Eirikr, 荒巻モロゾフ: there is Tohoku dialects あくと (currently without any labels, but I will fix this soon), so could the real proto-form be some sort of contraction? Chuterix (talk) 11:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, there's also several variations listed at w:ja:かかと#方言, and more still at https://www.jlect.com/search.php?r=踵&group=words. Voiced variants are common in the northeast (Tsugaru, Iwate, Miyagi, etc.), as expected for those dialects in general, as well as in the southwest. I suspect that Kagoshima ado could well be a regular development via voicing + contraction: akuto → agudo → ando → ado. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:17, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

(revisiting) I am not aware of any dialects in western Japan (let alone Kyushu) that voice velar consonants. I checked the dialect listings of たこ【蛸】 in 現代日本語方言大辞典: all dialects just have /tako/ without any voicing whatsoever. And I am not aware of any other words that contract -kut- (> *-gut-) > *-nd- > d, although it's merely absence of evidence, so I think it's not regular development, but a contraction is still within the realm.

I want to update the Japanese Wikipedia article, but I'm blocked there (although I still have talk page access). Chuterix (talk) 17:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

If JLect is anything to go by, the list at https://www.jlect.com/search.php?r=%E8%B8%B5&group=words includes apparent oddities like Kagoshima /kakado/, an apparently voiced shift from standard /kakato/. While not a velar, it's still an instance of otherwise-unexplained medial voicing.

At the bottom of the list at https://www.jlect.com/search.php?r=%E3%81%8B%E3%81%8B%E3%81%A8&group=words, we also see the terms /atodo/, /atogen/, /adogen/, and /dogen. The /atogen/ ↔ /adogen/ correspondence intrigues me, and leads me to ask — as an hypothesis to rule out, might this /ado/ instead be a shift from /ato/? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 07:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Eirikr: JLect often cherrypicks from secondary sources and does not provide the source (I know it is possible to make a report of the entry, but the last report I e-mailed about the entry of gajabu a while ago, there hasn't been any response). Due to my seriousness in my sources (since I'm doing other works outside of WT), I stay away from JLect and only use it to search for Shuri (Okinawa) words.

Some of those entries you mentioned are also dated from 2013, according to the JLect citation format that Zachary Read gives in the entries.

Looking at 日本国語大辞典 (got access to JapanKnowledge Lib again) entry for 踵 (kakato):

カガット〔千葉〕カカド〔志摩・鹿児島方言〕カガト〔千葉・岐阜・徳島・愛媛周桑・伊予・瀬戸内・熊本分布相〕

I have yet to check other words to seee if -t- gets voiced to -d- in Kagoshima.

And in 日本方言大辞典, the devoiced words for "heel" are ato-kibisu in Nara-Yoshino (but that might be just 跡 (ato, “footprint”) + 踵 (kibisu, “heel”)); atojii in Miyazaki-Nishimorokata, Kagoshima, and Kagoshima-Ibusuki. dogen appears in Kagoshima-Kimotsuki. Chuterix (talk) 10:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Re: dogen, if JLect is right in listing also atogen and adogen, then dogen might be this same term with the initial a- falling out. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:29, 3 September 2024 (UTC)