Talk:𐤒𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕

Spelling and attestation

@Dbachmann: If this is a misspelling, we should move it to the correct spelling rather than change the text of the entry. Anyway, do you know which spelling is actually attested? I know that Phoenician, especially Punic, did tend to use more vowel letters than other Semitic languages of the time. --WikiTiki89 18:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Cambridge Ancient Languages of Syria-Palestine and Arabia says that matres lectiones are almost exclusively used (for domestic vocabulary) world-finally. Every other source I've seen giving a Phoenician spelling of Carthage has spelt it without aleps and there is no source given in the article for this vocalised spelling. With all that, I strongly feel that this ought to be moved to the name without aleps (qrtḥdšt, 𐤒𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕). Tristanjlroberts (talk) 14:20, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, Cambridge Ancient Language of Syria-Palestine and Arabia says that, in Phoenician & Punic, when alep was used as mater lectionis it signified e-vowels & o-vowels rather than a-vowels (as in Hebrew) which were signified with ayin (i-vowels and u-vowels are signified by yod and waw respectively). If this form is attested with matres lectionis, it ought to be romanised accordingly with e or o-vowels (qort ḥedošt being the most plausible vocalisation of those matres lectionis, the shift a>o already being attested in the history of Phoenician in the long vowels, and with reduction to schwa known to have happened sporadically pretonicaly). Regardless, this form is certainly less commonly used than the 𐤒𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕, qrtḥdšt form and so this should be moved Tristanjlroberts (talk) 00:12, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Basically what I'm saying is that something erroneous has happened at some point, and someone familiar with Hebrew spelling has either added the matres lectionis themself when they don't belong, or if it is attested (which I doubt, literally every result I can find with this spelling is on wiktionary), gave it primacy based on the incorrect assumption that Hebrew and Punic mark vowels the same. Tristanjlroberts (talk) 00:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

cross-posted from the move-request page, I now have citations! Page 434 of Phoenician-Punic Dictionary by Charles R Krahmalkov published by Uitgeverij Peeters en Departement Oosterse Studies Leuven, 2000, gives QRTḤDŠT as the Phoenician/Punic name of Carthage citing an inscription CIS i 5632.5/7 (Pu, Carthage, ca 450 B.C.): "[bmʼt] wʻsrm št l[špṭ] špṭm bqrtḥdš[t]" ("[This stele was erected in the one hundredth] and twentieth year of the [suffeteship] of the Suffetes in Carthage"), another IFPCO p. 109 Sard. no 32.9/10 (Pu, Tharros, Sardinia) "[š]pṭm bqrtḥdšt ʼdnbʻl wḥmlkt" ("<In the year this stela was erected here> the Suffetes in Carthage were Idnibal and Himilco"), and a third KAI 68.1/4 (Pu, Olbia, Sardinia) "[PN ʼš b]ʻm qrtḥdšt bn ḥnbʻl bn ḥmlkt bn grmlqrt b[n ḥ]nbʻl bn mhrbʻl bn grʼšmn bn bdṣd bn bʻlšmʻ bn ʻbdtywn bn ptʼ bn ʼrš bn grʼ bn ymʼ bn ḥlbn bn ḥlṣbʻl bn mlkṣd" ("[This stele was erected by PN a member of the] nation of Carthage, son of Hannibal son of Himilco son of Germilqart son of Hannibal son of Maharbaal son of Geresmūn son of Bodṣid son of Balsamo son of Abdtennaw son of PTʼ son of Aris son of Gera son of YMʼ son of ḤLBN son of Ḥaloṣbaal son of Milkṣid." et passim. That ought to be sufficient sources for a move I think? Tristanjlroberts (talk) 23:47, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

RFM discussion: October 2018

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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𐤒𐤀𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤀𐤃𐤀𐤔𐤕 (Carthage) → 𐤒𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕 removing erroneous matres lectionis

I'm pretty new here so didn't want to just move this myself (even though I'm pretty sure it is, ultimately, a misspelling). Everywhere I can find, the Punic/Phoenician name of the city is given as 𐤒𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕, qrtḥdšt (with the vocalisation assumed to be qartḥadašt), sometimes with a space between the two elements. The only place I can find the form with aleps in the (presumed) vowel locations is this very website and, as I have argued on the discussion page, they actually suggest different vowels from the vocalised form indicating they were probably inserted by someone familiar with Hebrew spelling (where aleph is used to indicate a-vowels), but not Punic spelling (where alep indicates e and o-vowels, with ayin indicating a-vowels and, even then, only in very late inscriptions and even then mostly for final vowels or foreign names & words). Summing up, I'm pretty sure 𐤒𐤀𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤀𐤃𐤀𐤔𐤕 should be moved to 𐤒𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕 and the romanisation accordingly changed from "qʾrtḥʾdʾšt" to "qrtḥdšt". Tristanjlroberts (talk) 01:08, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I think you're right, but it would be best if we could find an actual image of an inscription or other primary source to confirm the spelling. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:14, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure of any specific inscription (I've been through the entire catalogue of Punic inscriptions available on the British Museum website but they're all devotional stelae following the same formula with no reference to the name of the city), but wikipedia cites Wolfgang David Cirilo de Melo (ed), Amphitryon, Volume 4 of The Loeb Classical Library: Plautus, Harvard University Press, 2011, p. 210 which mentions that the name of the city is written qrt ḥdšt but it doesn't mention any specific inscription. Interestingly it also says that Plautus gives the adjectival form in Poenulus as Carthadati (presumably qrtḥdty) without any sign of the š although it says this is for metrical reasons. Would that be sufficient source? Tristanjlroberts (talk) 15:16, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I've got a better citation now. Page 434 of Phoenician-Punic Dictionary by Charles R Krahmalkov published by Uitgeverij Peeters en Departement Oosterse Studies Leuven, 2000, gives QRTḤDŠT as the Phoenician/Punic name of Carthage citing an inscription CIS i 5632.5/7 (Pu, Carthage, ca 450 B.C.): "[bmʼt] wʻsrm št l[špṭ] špṭm bqrtḥdš[t]" ("[This stele was erected in the one hundredth] and twentieth year of the [suffeteship] of the Suffetes in Carthage"), another IFPCO p. 109 Sard. no 32.9/10 (Pu, Tharros, Sardinia) "[š]pṭm bqrtḥdšt ʼdnbʻl wḥmlkt" ("<In the year this stela was erected here> the Suffetes in Carthage were Idnibal and Himilco"), and a third KAI 68.1/4 (Pu, Olbia, Sardinia) "[PN ʼš b]ʻm qrtḥdšt bn ḥnbʻl bn ḥmlkt bn grmlqrt b[n ḥ]nbʻl bn mhrbʻl bn grʼšmn bn bdṣd bn bʻlšmʻ bn ʻbdtywn bn ptʼ bn ʼrš bn grʼ bn ymʼ bn ḥlbn bn ḥlṣbʻl bn mlkṣd" ("[This stele was erected by PN a member of the] nation of Carthage, son of Hannibal son of Himilco son of Germilqart son of Hannibal son of Maharbaal son of Geresmūn son of Bodṣid son of Balsamo son of Abdtennaw son of PTʼ son of Aris son of Gera son of YMʼ son of ḤLBN son of Ḥaloṣbaal son of Milkṣid." et passim. That ought to be sufficient sources I think? Tristanjlroberts (talk) 23:32, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

with these citations, I think this is now definitively just a case of misspelling so I've moved it myself and am fixing the pages that link there and adding the source inscriptions now. Tristanjlroberts (talk) 00:02, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

RFM discussion: October 2018

See Talk:𐤒𐤓𐤕𐤇𐤃𐤔𐤕#RFM discussion: October 2018.