Talk:lavish

Etymology

@Leasnam Hi! Why are we listing this as ‘of uncertain origin’ when all the standard sources (MED, OED, Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology) agree that it’s from Old French? Is there any recent academic source that supports the laven origin, or other reason to suspect it? Worth noting the noun sense is about as old as the adjective (per the Oxford sources, older; but the earliest attestation dates for the adjective aren’t entirely certain). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 07:32, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vorziblix Hello ! Well, despite the many sources (those above notwithstanding), I have been unable to find any noun attestation in Middle English meaning "extravagance, abundance, prodigality", nor a form lavas in Middle English that conclusively ties it to the Old French noun. Please direct me if you have more definitive information. Otherwise, unfortunately, this leaves only an original adjective for Middle English, which some sources (e.g. Century) tie to lave + -ish (cf. lavy). The form laves /'laːvəs/ seems distant from lavasse /la'vasse/ - I would expect a ME lavā̆s(se); yet on the other hand, it looks very much like laven + -es, -is variants of -isch, -issh. However, ME lavage does allude to OFr lavache in form. On the semantic side of things it seems less likely, the meaning of "extravagance, wasteful" fits better with ME laven "pour out [e.g. gifts, grace, etc.] to the extent that one is exhausted or drained" (cf. DUM lavenesse; Mod NL lafenis (“lavishment”)). "Torrent of rain" connotes destructiveness rather than generosity. Leasnam (talk) 13:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@Leasnam: For a noun attestation in Middle English, with the desired form lavas, see here: about halfway down the second column of that page, “In no place, ne in no cloyſtre was ſeylence better kept ne holden, ther was no lauas in their ſpeche, ne euylle, but they were ſobre and ſoo good, that they ſhewed wel, that in their hertes was none euyl, but al goodenes”. There are also Middle English uses of the adjective with the form lavas; here’s an example. (The word was introduced in the last few decades of the 15th century, so there’s not many Middle English attestations in general; from the ones I’ve been able to find, lavas seems to be the form of about half of them.)

Semantically, I’m not sure. Practically all the early uses, even through Early Modern English, have negative connotations and seem associated with excess rather than generosity per se; to go from ‘torrent of rain’ to ‘excess’ seems straightforward enough as a metaphor. (We have a similar sense development in torrent itself!) I agree a semantic development from laven could also make sense, though IMO the consistently negative connotations of early lavish seem odd in that case. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:33, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vorziblix:, ahhh, NED, yes - and lavas (adjnoun) - okay Thank you ! Leasnam (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)