Talk:luho

Pronunciation

@TagaSanPedroAko Maybe just call it colloquial, that's what I always put. I think the usage notes is unnecessary, since it can be implied from the pronunciation section. To be honest, in terms of pronunciation, I don't think there's a standard or non-standard pronunciation in Tagalog. The way I look at it, there's the colloquial version we speak today, some dialectal versions, and maybe the older/formal version. — This unsigned comment was added by Mar vin kaiser (talk • contribs).

Edited accordingly.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 12:35, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: My thoughts here, having read the 2015 book by Almario regarding Filipino language planning that is enlightening and inspiring too, we should still note pronunciations as officially considered nonstandard even though they're in common usage. This isn't the only example of a word with a pronunciation considered nonstandard by KWF; English loanwords first pronounced with pseudo-Hispanic pronunciation are considered as such too and we should note those as such even if present usage still says it's common. We're here to document actual usages, but we should also attempt to describe also what prescriptive authorities like the KWF considers as standard. It's being long done with English or other major languages in terms commonly considered nonstandard by certain authorities (other dictionaries, prescriptive grammarians, or language regulators), and why not do it with Tagalog? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Adding to those above, we've been listing KWF's considerations in some words, e.g. nang (due to common confusion with ng and na'ng) and also Filipino (noting when it was considered standard spelling of the nationality and adjective until 2021 when the older and more common P-spelling got restored) as well as pseudo-Hispanisms/siyokoy and spellings officially deprecated by KWF in its 2007 and 2013 revisions of the Ortograpiyang Pambansa and the 2014 Manwal (excluding some words whose spelling changes were undone last 2021 following Almario's departure from KWF), but why not do it with pronunciations? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Spelling prescriptions for Tagalog words are quite clear in KWF, except for English loanwords which none of the KWF dictionaries clarify, since it's a hodgepodge of all language, so you can't separate which ones are legit English loanwords and which are just there like "dog" or "cat".

For pronunciations of English loanwords, same problem with above, it's unclear if they're documenting an English word outside Tagalog, or an English loanword inside Tagalog. For words like "luho", which is a Spanish loanword, obviously KWF dictionaries are documenting the Tagalog word, so I guess that's where your question would be relevant. The thing is though, I don't think KWF gives a "prescribed" pronunciation. They never said they prescribe one. Just because they provide a stress guide in their dictionaries (like all do), I don't think that means they're proscribing another pronunciation. They've never written about it (unless you know about something). I think all we can conclude there is that they're giving a guide to pronounce the word. No more no less. I don't think it's right to assume that everything the KWF releases is a prescription, unless they say it is, like with spellings. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Just to share, I say the word "luho" without the glottal stop. I don't know why. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Well, I can find notes by Almario in his book on language planning regarding how younger speakers have "corrupted" pronunciations of several words and how Filipino teachers must deal with it, which basically falls under linguistic prescription (that's kind of similar to the perceptions on "lazy sounds" in Cantonese spoken by younger people, so is dialectal pronunciations of English in places where it's the primary first language). From that view, the pronunciation LU-ho' that I hear can be treated as something being discouraged and therefore proscribed.

On KWF Diksiyonaryo, I completely agree as it's not just Tagalog (or Filipino), but also the words in the other languages of the Philippines (including English). Yes, it's hard to tell if an English term there is considered part of standard Tagalog vocab (unless you look elsewhere outside KWF publications), but the thing is modern Tagalog (Filipino being the same language as Tagalog here) has allowed borrowing words without adaptation. Problems however is Taglish is everwhere (isn't this is something KWF must fight?) and there's this trend to spell English loans in original when an already-attested adapted spelling can be used (e.g. nars vs nurse; we'll prefer the former as lemma), but we should let more unadapted loanwords with moderation. Yet, that'll be hard. —TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:56, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: From Almario perhaps, but it has to come from the KWF officially. Like they said so themselves. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Sharing my experience, I pronounce luho (so is derivatives such as maluho) with glottal stop. Yes, it's from Spanish (from 19th century as it reflected modern pronunciation); the final glottal stop seems something that appeared spontaneously. Basing on Almario's views as well as luho being a newer Spanish loan, the pronunciation with glottal stop can be considered nonstandard, and Diksiyonaryo, which was started when Almario is still with KWF (and also reflect his views on modern pronunciation and orthography), appears to correct what he deems to be a "corrupted" pronunciation.-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:22, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: You're probably right, but that would be speculation unless they really say it. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Yeah, it's hard to tell whether Almario's views represent KWF, but they're a language regulator and is basically prescriptive in nature. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Some further examples of words with second-to-last stress where the standard pronunciation doesn't have glottal stop but often pronounced with it: sala (“sin”), malaya, and bahura. In most of these, the glottal stop appears to be unconsciously added, and became common through media.TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 04:53, 13 January 2022 (UTC)