Talk:schalk
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RFV-sense of "(Outdated) A knave, servant.". Not in the WNT, etymological dictionaries suggest this didn't outlast Middle Dutch. The definition is unclear, too. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 17:21, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's listed here [[1]], and I can find uses in Google Books [[2]] (search "een schalk" "nederlands"). Leasnam (talk) 22:46, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- But the first link doesn't give "servant" for modern Dutch.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)- Clearly archaic, but in early modern Dutch it seemed to have been used in at least some religious texts, in phrases such as "Heer, ik ben uw schalk" (Lord, I am thy servant) and in compounds such as Godschalk (God's servant = priest) [3] Morgengave (talk) 09:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, that's certainly a valid use. But I'm curious where those 19th-century writers got it from. The Vorstermann-, Deux-Aes- and Statenvertaling all use "knecht" [4] [5] [6] and it seems "schalk" was very pejorative in the sixteenth and early seventeenth century. So my guess is that is was from an eighteenth-century (maybe late seventeenth-century) Psalm translation that had been published separately.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)- The book Antiquitates Germanicæ linked to above is an 18th-century text; possibly later writers, who do not quote more than this single phrase, copied it from that text. It has somewhat the nature of a mention; in particular, how can we be sure that the unidentified (rhyming?) translation of the Book of Psalms was Dutch and not Middle Dutch? If the term schalk came from a Middle Dutch psalter it was not the 1360 translation, which has O Heere, ic ben dijn knech, ic ben cnecht, dijnre dierne sone.[7], and also not the 1483 psalter linked to from Middelnederlandse psalters, which has O heꝛe want ic dijn knecht bin Ick bin dijn knecht eñ ſone dijnre diernen.[8] --Lambiam 19:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, that's certainly a valid use. But I'm curious where those 19th-century writers got it from. The Vorstermann-, Deux-Aes- and Statenvertaling all use "knecht" [4] [5] [6] and it seems "schalk" was very pejorative in the sixteenth and early seventeenth century. So my guess is that is was from an eighteenth-century (maybe late seventeenth-century) Psalm translation that had been published separately.
- Clearly archaic, but in early modern Dutch it seemed to have been used in at least some religious texts, in phrases such as "Heer, ik ben uw schalk" (Lord, I am thy servant) and in compounds such as Godschalk (God's servant = priest) [3] Morgengave (talk) 09:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- But the first link doesn't give "servant" for modern Dutch.
- Without exception each use of schalck(en) in this Bible concordance from 1645 has a sense of depravity, extending to priests (Want beyde Propheten ende Priesters zijn ſchalken). I find it hard to imagine a contemporaneous sense of pious submission. Interestingly, the word is also used as an adjective (Exempelen eeniger ſchalke menſchen). --Lambiam 20:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I also noticed the adjective, it seems quite common from the 16th up to the 19th century. I have personally never seen or heard the adjective schalk before this month, but the more clearly marked adjective schalks is still a very current word. However, it does seem like the meaning of schalk (adj.) was rather more negative.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I also noticed the adjective, it seems quite common from the 16th up to the 19th century. I have personally never seen or heard the adjective schalk before this month, but the more clearly marked adjective schalks is still a very current word. However, it does seem like the meaning of schalk (adj.) was rather more negative.
- Without exception each use of schalck(en) in this Bible concordance from 1645 has a sense of depravity, extending to priests (Want beyde Propheten ende Priesters zijn ſchalken). I find it hard to imagine a contemporaneous sense of pious submission. Interestingly, the word is also used as an adjective (Exempelen eeniger ſchalke menſchen). --Lambiam 20:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
RFV failed —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 12:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)