Talk:subah

RFV discussion: December 2022–February 2023

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subah

Senses:

• (India) A government, as of a viceroy.
• (India) A subadar.

Tagged by This, that and the other (who added these senses and {{Webster 1913}}) on 14 October, not listed. J3133 (talk) 12:27, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

These senses had been inaccurately imported from Webster's entry subah to our entry subash. I moved them to the correct entry, but the senses are vague and I was suspicious. I would be willing to let the "subadar" sense pass without verification, as it is well supported by evidence in the OED (albeit in a range of spellings), however, the "government" sense looks to be a Webster special and needs checking. This, that and the other (talk) 12:45, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Without hunting for citations right now I think what Webster's was driving at is the use of the term in British India, inherited from the Mughals. A subah in that context was properly the province that was traditionally ruled by a subadar, but it seems like the term ended up frequently (maybe predominantly) being applied to the officeholder, by conflation. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:32, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

...the officeholder being the subadar, right? I'm happy to exclude that sense from this RFV; it obviously exists and doesn't need verification. It's the "government" sense that needs checking. This, that and the other (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

From looking at how it's used in contemporary sources the intended distinction from sense 1 seems to be the same as how a "kingdom", "sultanate" etc. can refer to a territory or to the government of the territory/office of its ruler. But it's very difficult to find uses that unambiguously mean the latter rather than the former or the officeholder himself. In 19th-century sources subahs (the provinces) are frequently described as "vice-royalties" and the like. I found one citation that looks completely unambiguous but I would probably just fold it into sense 1. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 11:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

RFV Failed, not in OED either. Ioaxxere (talk) 19:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)