Talk:tahash

There is an incredible amount of information on this word in the link to the Wikipedia article Tachash which apparently substantiates all the definitions given here. The request for deletion (RFD) and the subsequent move to a request for verification (RFV) and the reasons given for each were as entertaining as a soap opera! Hermitstudy 13:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process.

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.

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tahash

The following is from Wiktionary:requests for deletion Not in the OED. Wikipedia article is for (deprecated template usage) tachash (also not in the OED). SemperBlotto 22:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Move to RFV. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:39, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it should remain. I noticed some time ago in the Wikipedia article "Tachash" that "badger" had been replaced by the bracketed (linked) word "Tahash", which contextually made no sense ("the Tahash is excluded...": how could it be excluded when Tahash skin is to be used for the covering?). My own attempt to access the substituted word "Tahash" was unsuccessful. Later, I found several edits and additions which allowed the added "Tahash" to remain ("the Tahash as 'badger' is excluded..."), but still no link to another article. I was already aware that this word was an alternative transliteration of "Tachash" (along with "Takhash"), and expected that someone with the requisite expertise would eventually provide for this lack of an explanation. Some years ago when I first read the word "tahash" in the New American Bible, in the text, and in a footnote to Exodus 25:5, I was able from my other studies to understand somewhat the rendering of "Heth/Cheyth/Khayth" as "h" by the editors (instead of "ch" or "kh"): it is legitimate. I recently reread that text and the footnote re: "tahash" during a study of the Mishkan (the Tabernacle) and, curious, attempted (first time!) to obtain a reliable definition of "Tahash" from Wiktionary less extensive than what was available in the Wikipedia article "Tachash", in the expectation that a brief definition accessible to both the beginning student and the curious reader of the Tanakh/Old Testament translation of the text and the footnote in the NAB existed. It did not. Until a few hours ago. "Tahash" and "Tachash" may not have been submitted to the O.E.D. editors, but both forms of the word and both definitions are found to be fully attested over several decades in material accessible to the ordinary student of world literature and of scripture, and to the ordinary reader, once they know of these sources; but they are not solely found in special studies. The link to the Wikipedia article provides ample evidence of this. It appears that this is the sole reason for the link. The link to the Wikipedia article "Tachash" and the ready link from that article to a solidly based, reasonably terse definition of its alternate form "Tahash" in the Wiktionary has the appearance of solidly based research. The ordinary person can readily find it. I render my opinion that it meets the criteria for inclusion. I find no reason to delete either the Wiktionary entry "tahash" or the Wikipedia article "tachash", precisely because of their utility to the ordinary person reading the Bible, other dictionaries, and other encyclopedias, and the internet, who, seeing the word, will ask what it means. Hermitstudy 07:07, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Move to RFV (where I suspect it'll fail).​—msh210℠ 23:49, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

It appears in the New American Bible’s translation of Exodus 25:5. Is that a well-known work? (That's probably not the only translation that includes it, but it's the first one I found online that does. None of the really famous Christian Bibles — KJV, NIV, etc. — uses it so far as I can tell. I'll check Artscroll when I get home.) —Ruakh_TALK 22:00, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

To follow up, my Artscroll uses tachash and my Jerusalem Bible uses tahash (the h being underlined), so neither counts for [[tahash]]. But FWIW, neither one uses italics or gives a footnote or other otherwise suggests that it's anything but a normal English word. In the case of the Jerusalem Bible, that's not so meaningful (it also uses "Moshe" instead of "Moses", "Yisra'el" instead of "Israel", etc.), but Artscroll's use of tachash is more notable IMHO. Those are my only Bibles at home, but I'll be at my parents' house next week, and will comment back if any of their Bibles are relevant (assuming I don't forget). —Ruakh_TALK 23:01, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

It is a well-known work within the scope of the whole broad Christian community: probably not as well-known to the Evangelical and Fundamentalist fellowships within the Christian community. (see the Wikipedia articles "New American Bible," and "Tachash: "Other Bible Translations" and the links provided with the titles in that list to articles about them.) Hermitstudy 13:06, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

A side-by-side statistical sales comparison chart year-by-year 1970-Present should attest the public reputations of the various translations listed in the Wikipedia article tachash. Hermitstudy 11:22, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Follow-up response to your query "Is that a well-known work?": See Wikipedia article "English translations of the Bible: Popularity of English Translations"(second paragraph): "Amazon lists the top ten in current sales in the USA (as of 8/17/2009) to be the NAB, NRSV, NIV, KJV, Message, NASB, NLT, RSV, Amplified, and the Orthodox Study Bible." (highlighting of "top ten" and "NAB" mine) Hermitstudy 19:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Our past discussions of "well-known work" have indicated that that refers not to current bestsellers, but to things like, oh, the works of Shakespeare.​—msh210℠ 19:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Results of a word search of "tahash" yielded the following attestations of use relevant to this debate:

results of search

(Search-page [1])

• Amazon.com: "tahash skin": Key Phrase page

Key Phrase page for tahash skin: Books containing the phrase tahash skin

www.amazon.com/phrase/tahash-skin

(page 1)

Featured Books for "tahash skin"

Numbers (Collegeville Bible Commentary Old Testament 5) (Vol 5) by Helen Kenik Mainelli

Excerpt-on page 26: "...the screening curtain and cover the ark of the commandments with it. 6Over these they shall put a cover of tahash skin, and on top of this spread an all-violet cloth. They shall then put the poles in place. ..."

Rites of the Catholic Church (Rites of the Catholic Church, Vol. 2) by Liturgical Press

Excerpt-on page 136: "... Over these they shall put a cover of tahash skin, and on top of this spread an all-vio- let cloth. They shall then put the poles in place. On the..."

Book of Blessings: Approved for Use in the Dioceses of the United States of America by the National Council of Catholic Bishops and Confirmed by the Apostolic See (Roman Ritual) by Catholic Church

Excerpt-on page 703: "... curtain and cover the ark of the commandments with it. Over these they shall put a cover of tahash skin, and on top of this spread an all-violet cloth. ..."

The Catholic Bible, Personal Study Edition: New American Bible by Jean Marie Heisberger

(no Excerpt)

(scroll down to Search Amazon.com Books for "tahash skin")

2. The Particulars of Rapture: Reflections on Exodus by Avivah Gottlieb Zornberg (Paperback - Nov 19, 2002)

Excerpt-page 316: "...blue, purple, and crimson yarns, fine linen, goats' hair, rams' skins dyed red, tahash skins, and acacia wood; oil for lighting, spices for the...

5. Collegeville Bible Commentary: Based on the New American Bible With Revised New Testament by Diane Bergant and Robert J. Harris (Hardcover - Oct 1988)

Excerpt-page 72: "...left hanging down on both sides (vv. 7-13). Finally, ram skins dyed red cover the whole building, and tahash skins (light leather hides), cover the ram skins (v. 14). ..."

10. The Book of Exodus: A Critical, Theological Commentary by Brevard S. Childs (Hardcover - Jun 1974)

Excerpt-page 523: "...probable. Driver, 'dugong'; NJPS 'dolphin'; NEB 'porpoise', margin 'sea cow'; NAB ' tahash skins '. The RSV's 'goat skins ' apparently tries to interpret thf as..."

11. Fireside Catholic Youth Bible by The Bible (Hardcover - Nov 15, 2004)'

Excerpt-page 21: "...the tent itself you shall make a covering of rams' skins dyed red, and above that, a covering of tahash skins. The Wooden Walls. 15 "You shall make boards of..."

(page 2)

13. Lifecycles: Jewish Women on Biblical Themes in Contemporary Life (Lifecycles, Vol 2) by Debra Orenskin and Jane Rachel Litman (Paperback - Nov 1988)

Excerpt-page 134: "...muscles wet and bright, Tans and smoothes the tahash skins; Leather-lunged, he croons an unending song..."

16. The Targum of Canticles: Translated, With a Critical Introduction, Apparatus, and Notes (Aramaic Bible) by Philip S. Alexander (Hardcover - April 2003)

Excerpt-page 176: "...other mss. omit. JKLMN omit "of badger-skin." The meaning of ssgwn' is in some doubt. It is the standard Onq. transla- tion for tahash, the skin used to form the covering of the Tabernacle..."

19. The Burnt Book by Marc-Alain Ouaknin and Llewellyn Brown (Paperback - May ll, 1998)

Excerpt-page 248: "...object to be covered by the Parokhet, then by a tahash skin cover, then a violet cloth. ..."

23. Hours with the Bible: From Moses to the Judges; or, The Scriptures In The Light of Modern Discovery and Knowledge by Cunningham Geikie (Paperback - Feb 14, 2006)

Excerpt-page 292: "...leather, dyed red, and, over this, the fourth, of the skin of the dugong, a kind of seal, found still on the Red Sea, and known to the Hebrews as the "tahash."

(page 3)

26. Sacred geography, and antiquities ...By Rev. E.P. Barrows, D.D. by Michigan Historical Reprint Series (Paperback - Dec 21, 2005)

Excerpt-page 576: "...Fourthly : Overall was a covering of tahash skins, rendered in our version badgers' skins, but thought by many..."

30. Peake's Commentary on the Bible by Matthew Black and H. H. Rowley (Paperback - Aug 1, 2001)

Excerpt-page 233: "...or treat leather'. 'This would suggest that the mysterious tahash skins were actually an imported (?) specially finished leather'. Acacia..."

• NETBible: Tahash

(Search-page [2])

• USCCB-NAB-Exodus 25

1[5] Tahash: perhaps the name of a marine animal, such as the dugong or porpoise. The Greek and Latin versions took it for the color hyacinth.

• Shabbat 24a - 30b - OU.ORG

In describing the Tahash, the Gemara first says that it was similar to a "Tla Ilan," but was different in that Tla Ilan is not kosher, while the Tahash was a ...

(Search-page [6])

• CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Animals in the Bible

The skin of the ta'ha'sh is repeatedly spoken of as used for the outer cover of the tabernacle and the several pieces of its furniture. The old translations, and the D.V. after them...

(Search-page [8])

• Tabernacle Definition | Definition of Tabernacle at Dictionary.com

The third covering was of ram's skins dyed red, and the fourth was of badgers' skins (Heb. tahash, i.e. the dugong, a species of seal), Ex. 25:5; 26:14; 35:7,23; 36:19; 39:34

dictionary.reference.com/browse/Tabernacle

(Search-page [9])

• Chapter 1: The Creation of the World (This one was the most entertaining!)

A similar fate overtook the tahash, which had been created only that its skin might be used for the Tabernacle. Once the Tabernacle was completed, the tahash disappeared.

www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj103.htm

(scroll down to "THE SIXTH DAY", then down to the seventh paragraph of that section, which begins, "The shamir was made at twilight..."--see the twelfth sentence: "A similar fate..."

(Search-page [10])

• The Clouds and Darkness

and the 3rd is speculated on the term tahash leather (KJV "badger's skins," NIV "hides of sea cows") which is connected etymologically with the early Egyptian word tj-h-s, used as...

www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterFour/TheCloudsAndDarkness.htm

(scroll down to "Is the Ten Sefiroth connected to the Ten Curtains of the Tabernacle?", then down to the bottom of that page to the paragraph/segment, which begins, "The wooden framework...")

(Search-page [12])

• Exodus - T'rumah

rams' skins dyed red, and tahash skins, and acacia wood, Tahash: an animal of uncertain identity. Some believe it was a badger, others a porpoise or dolphin.

(Search-page [13])

• Sandals - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Bible Dictionary

Sandals were also made of seal-skin (Ezekiel 16:10; lit. tahash, "leather;" A.V., "badger's skin;" R.V., "sealskin," or marg. "porpoise-skin").

• Jewish Messiah, Moshiach/Mashiach - Perceptions of the Shamir in Three... (dimensions)

Correspondingly, the tahash, which had been created so its skin could be used for the Tabernacle, disappeared after the Tabernacle was completed.

(Search-page [14])

• JFB Commentary on Exodus 39

It was probably red morocco leather and "badgers' skins," rather "the skins of the ' tahash,' supposed to be the dugong, or dolphin of the Red Sea, the skin of which is still used...

• Living Space >> Archive >> Tuesday of week 17 of Ordinary Time

' Tahash ' may be the name of a marine animal, such as the dugong or the porpoise. The Greek and Latin translations of the Old Testament understood it as indicating the colour hyacinth. (scroll down to the tenth paragraph)

(Search-page [19])

• Chapter 7

The name Tahash means "burrowing," "diving," "ram." Tahash symbolizes an increase of life activity in the organism but an activity more of the animal than the spiritual kind.

("Chapter VII"---scroll down to "Page 187", and down to fifth paragraph/segment of that page.)

(Search-page [20])

• Bereshit, the Beginning The Most Mysterious of Times

koshertorah.com/PDF/bereshit.pdf

(scroll down to end of page 4, beginning of page 5, "Unicorns are considered...")

(Search-page [25])

• Catastrophism: Man, Myth and Mayhem in Ancient History and the...

...It's easy to verify: The skins stretched over the desert tabernacles are called 'oroth 'taHashim (that is, "taHash skins," where taHash is a Biblical animal) and 'oroth eilim (that is, "ram skins")--...

www.catastrophism.com/intro/search.cgi?zoom_query=tradition

(scroll down to 8. Return to the Paelo-Saturnian Ssystem (Forum) [Aeon Journal$])

(Search-page [27])

• The Sixth Day

Once the Tabernacle was completed, the tahash disappeared. It had a horn on its forehead, was gaily colored like the turkey-cock, and belonged to the class of clean animals. 166...

(scroll down to seventh paragraph, end of line 165, beginning of line 166: "A similar fate...")

(Search-page [28])

• Does Genesis hold up under critic's scrutiny?

The Hebrew word, tahash (tav-heh-shin), is used 14 times in the Old Testament, in reference to the outer covering for the Tabernacle (Exodus 25:5, 26:14, 35:7,23, 36:19, 39:34...

(Search-page [40])

• Chapter III

God created the animal Tahash exclusively for the needs of the Tabernacle, for it was so enormous that out of one skin could be made a curtain, thirty cubits long.

www.pseudepigrapha.com/LegendsOfTheJews/loj305.htm

(scroll down to "THE ALTAR", then down to the fifth paragraph, which begins, "The materials employed...")

(Search-page [41])

• Living in Truth by Charles N. Pope -- Chapter 11: "All My Will" (The...

Tahash/Thahash means "a (clean) animal with fur," probably a species of antelope; --badger; prob. of foreign derivation. This nickname reflects the character of Ahmose.

www.domainofman.com/book/chap-11.html

(scroll down to bottom of page, Note 4:)

(Search-page [47])

• www.encyclopaediajudaica.com

Some hold that it is the tahash mentioned in the Bible and some the zemer of Deut. 14:5. The okapi belongs to the same family as the giraffe and has the same characteristics

- www.encyclopaediajudaica.com/sample-articles/article_view.php?sid=dietary-laws&p=7

This is a representative sampling of attested usages of the word "Tahash" from a variety of sources. An exhaustive listing would be exhausting. The footnotes and linkages provided in the Wikipedia article "Tachash" exhibit further examples attesting the contemporary and historical English usages of this word. Hermitstudy 03:22, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Italicized-as-foreign and italicized-as-quoted words don't count as English use.​—msh210℠ 19:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

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re: observation that "italicized-as-foreign and italicized-as-quoted words don't count as English use": that is not always a valid point. It does not exclude the items cited in attestations of use, which do not use italics.

Encyclopaedia Judaica, Second Edition, Volume 19: SOM--TN, c. 2007, Keter Publishing House Ltd., page 453, has the entry Tahash spelled without italicization and without the "c" (the work does not have an entry for "Tachash"). Tahash consistently appears in many sources as an ordinary English word: the Hebrew term T-H-S / t-h-s / t'h'sh / t'khsh / t-ch-s / t'H's / t'csh appears both in boldface and in italics as Roman letter character transliterations of the Hebrew term. Classical Hebrew has no vowels, English words do. The context of a discussion reveals the intent of italicization of "tahash" as either an emphasis on the term being discussed or on the fact that it was originally derived from a foreign language (transliteration or actual foreign characters often provided at that place in the text) showing that it has come into the English language as a translated term. The titles of English books (e.g. The Collected Works of William Shakespeare) are frequently italicized, per even the guidelines of Wiktionary entries and Wikipedia articles, and they count as English use. The Wikipedia today is a well-known work, and a work in progress. Yet I have met one or two people who have never heard of it. The word "Bible" is italicized in many places, itself derived from a foreign language (biblion, Byblos), solely to emphasize its dignity or importance. The precise meaning of tahash is debated in articles which do not italicize it, but treat it as an ordinary English word. Frequently, English translation editions of the Talmud have technical and Hebraic terms in the text which are not normally italicized or transliterated but are spelled as ordinary English equivalent terms (both dynamic and formal equivalents). The King James Version of the Bible (KJV), also called the Authorized Version (A.V.) has many places with italicized ordinary English words. Consulting at random any number of Wikipedia articles or other encyclopedic and dictionary sources covering any number of other subjects (e.g. animals, plants) will demonstrate the italicization of ordinary English terms. Hermitstudy 05:28, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

update--last night I reviewed the listing above: attestations of use. (I thought enough time had passed to allow more comments from other contributors to be posted before I continued.) Some of the sites referenced there have since been removed from the search engine (reasons and motivations are never given, it can change day-by-day!) I obtained complete titles of the sources I was able to access and joined them to other information I obtained from my own city's public library. I put them into chronological sequence and entered them as durably archived citations of use 1897-2007. Hermitstudy 16:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that most of the names of animals and plants in American and British English use are rooted in another language:

dugong from Malay, for example, camel from Arabic, raccoon from Algonquian, chimpanzee from Tshiluba;

hyacinth from Greek, tulip from Latin, from Turkish, from Persian, indigo from Greek;

unicorn from Latin, griffin from Old French, from Latin, from Greek,

basilisk from Middle English, from Old French, from Latin, from Greek,

sphinx from Middle English, from Latin, from Greek,

chimera from Ancient Greek, etcetera (etc.)

From this and from the citations of use above it should not seem strange or foreign that the English word tahash is a calque from Hebrew. With this I rest my case. Hermitstudy 16:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

RFV failed, entry deleted, for the very unfortunate reason that I can't even tell whether Hermitstudy has demonstrated that this word meets our criteria for inclusion. Hopefully, if it does, someone will come by at some point and demonstrate it in a more intelligible way. —Ruakh_TALK 14:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC)