Template talk:el-part

Lemmas

Why does this template classify participles as lemmata, when they aren't considered such in any other language? SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 19:04, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

I am not a grammarian, @Surjection, but are not all Parts of Speech lemmata? Greek dictionaries include participles either as sublemmata at the verb, or as clear lemmata, when they are more emanicipated from their verb. Sorry, I don't think anybody else is logged in at the moment for an answer... sarri.greek (talk) 20:08, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

"sublemmata at the verb" is what they should be, so they should be considered non-lemma forms, as they are for all other languages on Wiktionary. The reason is simply that you can form them systematically of any verb, similar to how one constructs past forms of verbs. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 20:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

@Surjection — @Sarri.greek and I discussed this some time ago, I don't remember where it went, but we decided on the current classifications. (It is also possible to describe a participle as an adjective, with participle appearing under the etymology. Since we have a section heading "Participles", should we use the heading verb, there is a certain logic in what we have done. Paper dictionaries (of limited space) may have "participle" entries with no verb, does this make it a lemma. Greek has slowly developed leaving some "participles" orphaned from their ancient forbears - is this an adjective?) We could spend/waste a lot of time discussing/arguing about this, I would rather not.
Just to say — we would like to do it this way. — Saltmarsh. 05:30, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

It is about consistency with other languages. Of course one can classify participles as adjectives - buying could easily be an adjective, but it's not often used and perceived as such, which is why it's considered a participle, not an adjective. Participles often used as adjectives also have an adjective L3, with categorization as adjectives and lemmata. That is all I'm arguing for - consistency on the rules where participles are lemmata or not, since it doesn't make sense to have them be lemmata in one language but not in any other one. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 07:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

@Surjection, @Sarri.greek — Indeed, I think Greek participles do sometimes receive dictionary entries as adjectives, and some were here. I would not have started using the L3 header "participle" if it hadn't already been used elsewhere —see: Wiktionary:Entry_layout#Part_of_speech. — Saltmarsh. 04:44, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ What are we talking about here? The use of the L3 header or describing them as "lemmas". — Saltmarsh.

My issue was with the template categorizing them as lemmata. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 08:49, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Greek participles (e.g.λυμένος) are indexed under: Greek lemmas, Greek non-lemma forms, Greek adjectives in declencion..... And their Category is placed under Greek Verb forms.
The 'Greek lemmas' feature was added at {{el-part}} because we were adding it manually.

About a PoS which is form of something else = is put at non-lemma index. But then, if it, itself, has forms: forms of a 'form of' = becomes a lemma? Surjection says that in other languages it does not. (Same with declinable adjective comparative degrees).

Of course, a policy is a policy, and if obligatory, it affects all languages.

The greek paper-dictionary 'sublemmata' include: adverbs, participles, diminutive/augmentative nouns, and other variations. As you, Salt, have pointed out, their only problem was space. And at their introductory notes, they explain: DSMG: για λόγους οικονομίας χώρου (for reasons of space economy) and especially for participles: ...treated as lemmata...the ones... which are clear adjectives with their own analysis...richness of information... but ...the user will also find the participle at the verb... sarri.greek (talk) 09:17, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't think the classification of participles as being non-lemma forms instead of lemmata is that much of a policy more than it is a practice. One could argue participles should be lemmata, while one could also argue they should not be. Again, it's more about the consistency with other languages - I feel it doesn't make sense that Greek participles are lemmata but participles of no other language are. This doesn't mean that a participle cannot be a lemma; if it has a significant use as an adjective or a noun for example, it would also have the Adjective or Noun L3 and then would be classified as a lemma through being an adjective or a noun. SURJECTION _{·talk·contr·log·} 09:22, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

@Surjection I am sorry that we cannot agree over this, perhaps you should seek arbitration at the Beer parlour (if you do please ping @Sarri.greek and myself so the we notice). Its seems to me that there is room for departures from practice between languages. Many of the Greek participles were changed from adjectives some time ago after discussion. Perhaps there are more important things to do than spend time over this difference of opinion. — Saltmarsh. 05:11, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

default declinable

@Saltmarsh, I started updating Category:Greek participles - uncategorised, but, I was thinking: is it necessary to add d all the time? MOST participles are declinable. Could they be automatically categorized under Category:Greek declinable participles? As for the categories: Category:Greek past participles, Category:Greek present participles they are now useless. Also the Category:Greek perfect participles unless you wish to revive it. I have put the Category:Greek perfect participles with reduplication under the 'Declinables', without referring specifically to Perfect Participles. --sarri.greek (talk) 04:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Well - adding the "d" is hardly onerous, when I started writing it there was the possibility of there being more options, hence the default uncategorised trap. It won't always be us 2 adding participles. I don't really want to change it.— Saltmarsh. 04:56, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Understood, @Saltmarsh. Goood morning! --sarri.greek (talk) 05:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)