User talk:Benwing2/test-bg-conj

(Notifying Atitarev, Bogorm, Bezimenen, Nauka, Ted Masters, Kiril kovachev): First working version of verb module. Still needs a lot of work. Benwing2 (talk) 01:06, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: An awesome start! Please enable accelerated form creation, if it's no too hard. I guess you will be documenting the conjugation types - default, 2.1, 1.2. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:19, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: At bg:Типове думи#Глаголи There are these verbs types, I couldn't get the complete list of types from chitanka but here it is: 142 – 143 – 144 – 145 – 145a – 145b – 146 – 146a – 147 – 148 – 149 – 150 – 150a – 151 – 152 – 152a – 153 – 154 – 155 – 156 – 157 – 158 – 159 – 160 – 160a – 161 – 161a – 162 – 163 – 164 – 165 – 166 – 167 – 168 – 169 – 170 – 171 – 172 – 173 – 174 – 175 – 176 – 177 – 178 – 179 – 180 – 181 – 182 – 183 – 184 – 185 – 186 – 187 –.

Chitanka has subtypes. I'm worried there could be a very large number of conjugation types. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:25, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Accelerated forms are already enabled, they just don't work on non-mainspace pages. There are only 11 conjugation types (1.1 through 1.7, 2.1 through 2.3 and 3). They are as described in Bulgarian conjugation. Benwing2 (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

(Notifying Atitarev, Bogorm, Bezimenen, Nauka, Ted Masters, Kiril kovachev): I had to move some examples to User:Benwing2/test-bg-conj2 because otherwise I hit a "template include size exceeded" error (never seen this before). Benwing2 (talk) 04:06, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

треперя

@Benwing2 Could you please double-check трепе́ря (trepérja)? The table shows трепе́рах, трепера́х[1], Chitanka shows aorist трепѐрих and трепѐрах. The inflection table at Chitanka only "тре-пе-рих", Past participles: here - трепе́рал, трепера́л[1], chitanka - трепѐрил и трепѐрал, the table only треперил.--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:47, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev According to Bulgarian conjugation, трепе́ря is listed under class 1.3 but with a * by it, which says: "*These verbs have moved to the first class of the second conjugation due to analogy. First-conjugation forms can still be found, but are considered old-fashioned." I have it as an example of class 1.3, but in modern usage it tends to be class 2.1. Benwing2 (talk) 04:51, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thanks, https://rechnik.chitanka.info/w/треперя is the only place I can find the full paradigm. Can you include the old-fashioned way next to it as well, please? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:00, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I can't fit any more verbs on this page but I put the 2.1 variant on User:Benwing2/test-bg-conj2. That page is about to run out of room too, will have to create a third page for the irregular verbs. Benwing2 (talk) 05:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

трепе́рах, трепера́х are colloquial and technically belong to the conjugation of dial. трепе́рам (trepéram) (intensive, factitive). In contrast, треперя (treperja) has iterative sense. I'm not sure if they should be treated together (but I may be wrong, don't quote me on that). Безименен (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Atitarev My Правописен речник на българския книжовен език (Orthographical dictionary of the Bulgarian literary language), 1984, 10th edition, lists треперах (with the two possible stresses) as the aorist form, no trace of *треперих. Bogorm converſation 20:40, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@Bogorm, Bezimenen, Benwing2: Thank you all. I guess it will be easier to resolve when @Benwing2 implements the new verb conjugation module. I am using https://rechnik.chitanka.info/w/треперя. If you scroll down to "Минало свършено време (аорист)" you will see "тре-пе-рих". So class class 1.3 is the correct one as displayed in User:Benwing2/test-bg-conj? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: (So class class 1.3 is the correct one as displayed in User:Benwing2/test-bg-conj) Yes, I would say so. Bogorm converſation 18:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Need native speaker input

(Notifying Atitarev, Bogorm, Bezimenen, Nauka, Ted Masters, Kiril kovachev): I think the module is in pretty good shape except for irregular verbs, but it would help to have native speakers look over the examples here and at User:Benwing2/test-bg-conj2 to see if there are any errors or if you have suggestions (e.g. whether it makes sense to include the footnoted forms). Also, any hints as to patterns for verbal nouns? According to both Bulgarian conjugation and [1], various classes of verbs have verbal nouns that are unpredictably derived from the aorist, imperfect or both. For these classes, my module requires that you specify where the verbal noun is derived from (vna = from the aorist, vni = from the imperfect, vnai = from the aorist and imperfect in that order, vnia = from the imperfect and aorist in that order). Benwing2 (talk) 04:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for this! I've had a cursory look over all the tables and I don't see anything glaringly wrong - plus the dialect/disuse markings are quite helpful imo. As for the formation of verbal nouns, that's likely to need some more thought if we are to come up with a general rule... so far I've got nothing. The module is pretty much perfect, as far as I can see, except for "реша́" on User:Benwing2/test-bg-conj2, which cites "реша́" as dialectal, though it is actually standard - apologies if this is my misunderstanding - and doesn't have alternative stress; but this was the only error I could find.

Thanks again very much, and sorry for my late response. This will be extremely useful for future entries.

Kiril kovachev (talk) 21:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kiril kovachev: Thank you for your response! We will keep asking questions when adding conjugations for new verbs. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:05, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Kiril kovachev Yes, that's a mistake, thanks for catching it. It should only include the dialectal footnote when there's are two alternative stresses. Benwing2 (talk) 02:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Præsumably a misconception about two verb forms (реша̀, рѐша) of the same verb реша might have arisen. In fact, there are two verbs that differ by stress, etymology, and meaning. The verb рѐша (not yet listed in the entry here) means to comb (one’s hair) and has the aorist ресах (with two possible stresses). Both verbs can be reflexive. Реша̀ се means to resolve (to do; much like решить and решиться in Russian), whereas рѐша се is to comb oneself. Bogorm converſation 18:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)