Talk:مرگ بر

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مرگ بر

"death to", not idiomatic. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 03:01, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Keep. Saying it isn't idiomatic is like saying down with isn't idiomatic. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 04:34, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Delete. If I say "down with the President", am I seeking a lowering of his physical body or of his stature? Neither, really: I am expressing that I want him out of power. If I say "death to the President", in Persian or in English, I quite literally want him dead. Now, a very similar phrase in Persian that I do think is idiomatic is مرده باد‎ (morde bâd), which for some reason we don't currently have. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:55, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

In English no one would say "death to America" or "death to Israel" except as a calque from Persian, in imitation of the Persian idiom. Nor even would most people have said "death to Germany" when America was at war with Germany. "Death to" here is obviously idiomatic; America can't literally die when it never even lived - it's a country, not a person - and the phrase has nothing to do with literally wanting anyone dead.

We're not talking about the use of metonymy here either, as Iranians - whether protesters or official translators - typically translate "death to" as "down with" and are very clear they are not talking about wishing physical death on any living person. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 11:31, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

We do find uses like “death to the traitor” or “death to the murderer”, which I think are not calqued. If the argument is that this should be deleted because it is SOP, it is a valid argument in the discussion. But if the argument is instead that this should go because no one uses this, the request belongs at RfV.  --Lambiam 22:07, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

"Death to the traitor" is not equivalent to "Death to America." A traitor is a person; America is not. You can wish death upon a person non-metaphorically; you can only wish a metaphorical death on a non-living entity. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC) פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 23:59, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

The argument to keep is week. Delete as SoP. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Keep; the matter is discussed in at the Language Log, and it's clear that "Marg bar" is used more generally and widely, and less direly than "death to" is in English.--Prosfilaes (talk) 12:56, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Though it seems marginal, it seems on one hand, a phrase quite common in modern Persian, and on the other, one frequently mistranslated, or at least carelessly translated.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Keep; my understanding (especially as this has been discussed a lot in the context of recent events...) is that "marg bar" is indeed much broader than only wanting the literal death of something (which indeed leads to misunderstandings of level of emotion when the phrase is translated), and that "down with" is a good gloss, whether as the sole gloss or an additional one. One example I recall hearing was Iranian taxi drivers shouting the Persian equivalent of "death to traffic" (the hits for google books:"death to traffic" are informative about this very matter); another example I see on Google books is a prisoner saying "marg bar khorhesht sabzi" (vegetable stew). - -sche (discuss) 18:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Keep per -sche, given the use of it to refer negatively to non-personable things like car traffic and bad food. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 21:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, even death to seems entry-worthy to me. Canonicalization (talk) 17:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

It's been two months, and the consensus seems to mostly favor RFD kept. Detagging accordingly. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 19:32, 2 March 2020 (UTC)