User talk:Saltmarsh/Archive 8

Archive for 2017

who watches the watchers

Just making sure - is the semicolon at the end part of the phrase in Greek? It seems like stray punctuation, but I know nothing about the technical requirements of the language. Cheers! bd2412 T 14:58, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

@BD2412 The semicolon is the Greek "question mark" - but perhaps, since the en:term is not interrogative, this and initial capital should be removed ? — Saltmarsh. 16:13, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I believe we generally style phrases that are rhetorical questions that way (e.g. who's on first, who's your daddy). It's probably written down somewhere, but I just follow the models. Cheers! bd2412 T 17:29, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

θα είσαι

You can make any verb's future form with θα, right? So is there some reason I'm missing for why this should exist while will be shouldn't? (I was gonna send it to RFD but thought that I should check with you first in case I'm wrong about this.) —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 18:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

@Rossyxan, @Xoristzatziki - If you asked me to justify its inclusion (I don't think there is any suggestion that all such forms might be created) I would say that 'θα' is not used on its own (whereas 'will' has a separate existence). — Saltmarsh. 04:35, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, will doesn't exist on its own in that sense. And I certainly wouldn't want more of these to be created! —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 15:31, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm glad you're keeping an eye on things — Saltmarsh. 10:25, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

υπογράφω (and other compound greek verbs: problem with the imperatives)

--Sarri.greek (talk) 19:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)Saltmarsh, thank you for all your work. My note in 2017.06.27. on conjugation of υπογράφω. 1) Present Imperative sing 2s (υπέγραφε) is wrong: should be: υπόγραφε (υπό + γράφε. There is no epsilon: There is no syllabic αύξηση.) 2) Past (Aorist) Imperative sing 2s (υπέγραψε) is wrong: should be: υπόγραψε (υπό+γράψε) Past (Aorist) Imperative pl 2s (υπογράψετε) is OK. We also use: υπογράψτε. Check verb γράφω the imperatives. Similarly formed are the imperatives of all compound modern greek verbs. Thank you, sarri.greek — This unsigned comment was added by Sarri.greek (talk • contribs) at 19:01, 27 June 2017‎.

Thank you for this comment - I am moving it to Talk:υπογράφω — Saltmarsh. 05:57, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

nonmetallic

Hi there. Google Ngram viewer shows that "nonmetallic" became more popular than "non-metallic" in the 1940s. I think that the earlier usage was "not metallic" and the later usage is mostly "about nonmetals". SemperBlotto (talk) 05:00, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

@SemperBlotto Thanks - I have now bookmarked Google Ngram which I hadn't come across (or forgotten), do we have a page with similar useful sources. I had done a Google search which gave 10x more for the hyphened form (which to me looks more "attractive"). However, I suppose we must bow to the publishers' whims and ignore the common people! — Saltmarsh. 05:21, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

ελάσσων - έλασσον

from sarri.greek 2017.10.11. correction of inflection of modern greek word ελάσσων: Dear Saltmarsh. Hope you had a nice summer. Neuter sing. nominativus and accusativus of ελάσσων is έλασσον (NOT ελάσσον) just as in ancient greek. In fact, it IS ancient greek. Also, there is NO expression: 'πιο ελάσσων'. Ελάσσων suffices. When people speak modern greek, they often use ancient greek words intact. If one wishes to use a non-ancient greek language he would say 'πιο μικρός' or 'μικρότερος'. Ελάσσων = μικρότερος. The inflection at the greek Wiktionary-page of the word is correct. The accent moves from ελάσσων to έλασσον, because the makra legousa -ων does not allow the accent on the proparalegousa. This is true in both ancient AND modern greek. ---I was trying to find the etymon of the word, but I found nothing. Keep up your great work, I am always at your disposal if you need a beta-reading on your lemmata (you can give me a list and I shall take a look). Are they in unison with the greek pages? Do wiktionaries of different languages cooperate with the mother-language of a word? --Also, a thought: I understand why greek words are presented as gre and el (ancient and modern) in different pages of Wiktionary. But most of the time it is just the script that is different, the use of the word and inflection are identical.Sarri.greek (talk) 15:43, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks very much - now changed — Saltmarsh. 05:57, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

sarri 171012 Thanks. Could you also consider... 1. at ETYMOLOGY: the word 'Inherited'. It is not 'inherited from'. I would say: 'Used with monotonic script as in' 2. at id="Adjective" could you fix it here too? = έλασσον [ipa: élasson] 3. at DEFINITION2: (music) minor (key signature, scale, chord or interval) I would take off 'or interval'. I am half-sure about archaic greek, but in modern greek we name them 'μικρό διάστημα' (small intervall) NOT έλασσον. I have never heard it in my career. I am answering your analogio question at the word-page.Sarri.greek (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

1) In English you would say "inherited from my father!" similarly "Inherited from Ancient Greek"
2) Sorry - I'm not sure I understand!
3) done, thanks again. — Saltmarsh. 06:35, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

2) αυτό εννοείτε; --Barytonesis (talk) 08:38, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ - my eyesight is failing :} — Saltmarsh. 10:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

αλώπηξ

Just checking: is this definitely a word used in Modern Greek? There's ἀλώπηξ from Ancient Greek from which we get Αλώπηξ as the Greek name for the constellation Vulpecula. I'm not aware of αλώπηξ being used in Modern Greek outside of the constellation name though. Thanks! -Stelio (talk) 13:20, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Stelio I'm not sure where I got it from - but I suspect as a synonym for "αλεπού". My little Greek monolingual dictionary has it with the inflection "-εκος" so Katharevousa? It is also here - "alternative form ..." is probablynot the best gloss. What do you think? — Saltmarsh. 18:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

It could definitely be Katharevousa, as it's identical to Ancient Greek ἀλώπηξ (alṓpēx). But Katharevousa still makes use of the spirits, so in fact it should be moved to ἀλώπηξ, I think. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Now that I'm home from work, I've checked my physical dictionaries. While I didn't find the word in the on-line sources I use, it is listed (exactly in line with your entry, without the rough breathing mark) in my big 1995 10th ed. Τεγόπουλος-Φυτράκης Greek dictionary. So it's all good. I'll go add a declension table. Thank you for your time; apologies for apparently wasting it. -Stelio (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Stelio@Barytonesis I think that this has been a very useful exercise, addressing a problem which I've been trying not to think about for some time! Thank you both.
(1) Please have a look at ἀλώπηξ and αλώπηξ - is this a suitable way of treating this situation? Is the template worded in the best way?
(2) Is there a helpful source of Katharevousa inflections (and anything else) on the internet.
(3) There are some odd, or possibly Katharevousa, inflections needed in the Category:Requests for inflections in Greek noun entries - please could you use your greater knowledge here?
— Saltmarsh. 05:31, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't have a reliable internet source for Katharevousa. But Τεγόπουλος-Φυτράκης is a notable and very clear book: all Katharevousa words are marked with "Κ". Actually in this case αλώπηξ is not marked as Katharevousa, and there is no alternative ἀλώπηξ entry (other than the Ancient Greek word that forms the etymological source for αλώπηξ). So your latest edits to each can be reverted, Saltmarsh.

Katharevousa is a tricky area for me because I lack personal experience there (although bilingual, I was brought up and live in the UK, so my Greek is less formal). I'll continue to refer to Τεγόπουλος-Φυτράκης as a reliable source though, in case of future need. Μείζον is another good dictionary (I hear), though I don't own a copy. I found a few Greek dictionaries on Scribd, but it doesn't look like these were legal uploads.

Category:Requests for inflections in Greek noun entries is how I found αλώπηξ in the first place. ;-) But I see it's very much dropped in volume of entries since yesterday. You've been busy, @Barytonesis! :-D

-Stelio (talk) 08:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Not that much, you have to chalk it up to Saltmarsh who has taken care of almost all of them!

As for Katharevousa, I don't have any resources on it either, but I don't think it's a priority right now; a good deal of the info will be provided by the Ancient Greek entries anyway. I'd rather we focus all our efforts on Dimotiki.

Also, what I would love to see happen would be a Module:el-pron/Template:el-IPA, similar to the one we have for Ancient Greek, with phonemic and phonetic features; we have several native speakers versed in IPA, who I'm sure would be happy to help in making it very accurate. A declension Module on the model of Module:grc-decl would be good as well, because the current number of templates is very intimidating for a beginner. If only I had the technical means to do it... --Barytonesis (talk) 09:24, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I just came across a nice website that has digitalised many school books, all of which can be freely downloaded. The website is: http://e-library.iep.edu.gr/iep/index.html. There are many grammar books on Katharevousa (both normal and "simple"), one of them being: http://e-library.iep.edu.gr/iep/collection/browse/item.html?code=01-18949 (see page 42 of the PDF for words that decline more or less like αλώπηξ). Pretty much the same as Ancient Greek... @Saltmarsh I'm just jumping into your discussion and don't know if this has been previously discussed, but—referring to your (1)—I find it strange to have two Greek entries for the same word (ἀλώπηξ & αλώπηξ). From what I know, the polytonic system is not specific to Katharevousa, and as it was abolished, shouldn't all Greek terms (both Demotic and Katharevousa) be written in the monotonic system? — Orgyn (talk) 14:39, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

@Orgyn: Merci bien for that — I've been looking for this sort of source for years — it'll take me a while to wade through it :)
Referring to "αλώπηξ" — I think the etymology runs Ancient Greek, copied into Katharevousa or polytonic demotic which lost its breathings (I assume that's the word - I know nothing about grc!) to become monotonic demotic/SMG. The polytonic demotic may of course come direct. Hope that this makes sense - and thanks for jumoping in — Saltmarsh. 19:19, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

αποστολέως

Hi, I just modified one entry you created: "αποστολέως". It was said to be the genitive plural of αποστολέας but I'm pretty sure it's the genitive singular. Actually, according to Greek A Comprehensive Grammar (Part II, 2.1.4.1), αποστολέως is the genitive singular of αποστολεύς (the learned form, deriving from Ancient Greek). So my question is what should be done here: 1. should the declension template be modified to include the learned form (not only for the genitive case), or 2. should the learned form αποστολεύς be created along with its own declension template (I don't think it currently exists)? I think 2. would be the better solution as the book states "In very formal use, nouns of this type are sometimes declined in the singular according to the Ancient Greek declension from which they derive". Also, this would be in line with the βασιλεύς#Greek entry. — Orgyn (talk) 14:20, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

@Orgyn: I'm short of time at the minute and will com back to this. But I'm not sure why it was created in the first place! It is a monotonic forms of ἀποστολεύς - as you say the gen-sing, we already have the SMG αποστολέας with genitives αποστολέα and αποστολέων.
I am tempted just to delete the entry — but perhaps @Barytonesis might think it should be saved as an inflection of a possible monotonic/demotic αποστολεύς. — Saltmarsh. 09:38, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it should be deleted. The word exists in modern Greek, just like βασιλεύς has a Greek entry (as well as a Ancient Greek one). However, if we add αποστολεύς then I think that αποστολέως should refer to αποστολεύς and not αποστολέας. I can make the changes, but take your time, there's no rush ;). — Orgyn (talk) 13:05, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

@Orgyn: Yes - as in my last sentence above - although I don't feel confident enough about a possible Ancient-Katharevousa-demotic ancestry to create the lemma. If you are — please go ahead — Saltmarsh. 18:52, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Template for ανακοινωθέν

Hi again, I see you just created an inflection template for ανακοινωθέν. I wondered the day before yesterday if the ον template should be modified to accept words ending in εν but also αν. This way we would only have two templates instead of six. I had posted my question here: Wiktionary_talk:Greek noun inflection-table templates#Making_el-nN-.CE.BF.CE.BD-.CE.BF.CE.BD.CF.84.CE.B1-1_more_general. — Orgyn (talk) 13:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

You are right: θεωρήσετε

So @Saltmarsh:, not only are you my teacher in wiktionary, but also my teacher of greek grammar; because you are right (as always), and I was wrong. Checked with bibliography at university, then went to googlebooks Holton.Comprehensive.2012 θεωρήστε & (learned): θεωρήσετε p.160 and αγαπήστε - αγαπήσετε, απαντήσετε p.153. Γηράσκω ἀεί διδασκομένη (I age, always learning [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Solon Solon@wquote). Thank you, sarri.greek (talk) 10:43, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Sarri.greek: - I can never be certain about Jordanidou - when I bought it from the Greek bookshop in London I was warned that it had lots of errors. But as Alice said in Through the Looking Glass (with a slightly different meaning) "Words mean what I choose them to mean." and with anarchic Greek the same is no doubt true of its grammar! — Saltmarsh. 06:31, 6 December 2017 (UTC)