Wiktionary:Requests for verification

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Wiktionary > Requests > Requests for verification

Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
Requests for cleanup
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Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.

Requests for verification
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Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.

Requests for deletion
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Requests for deletion of pages in the main namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.

Requests for deletion/Others
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Requests for deletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.

Requests for moves, mergers and splits
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Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.

{{rfc-case}} - {{rfc-trans}} - {{rfdate}} - {{rfd-redundant}} - {{rfdef}} - {{rfe}} - {{rfex}} - {{rfap}} - {{rfp}} - {{rfphoto}} -

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

Scope of this request page:

  • In-scope: terms to be attested by providing quotations of their use
  • Out-of-scope: terms suspected to be multi-word sums of their parts such as “brown leaf”



See also:

Overview: Requests for verification is a page for requests for attestation of a term or a sense, leading to deletion of the term or a sense unless an editor proves that the disputed term or sense meets the attestation criterion as specified in Criteria for inclusion, usually by providing three citations from three durably archived sources. Requests for deletion based on the claim that the term or sense is nonidiomatic AKA sum of parts should be posted to Wiktionary:Requests for deletion.

Adding a request: To add a request for verification AKA attestation, place the template {{rfv}} or {{rfv-sense}} to the questioned entry, and then make a new nomination here. Those who would seek attestation after the term or sense is nominated will appreciate your doing at least a cursory check for such attestation before nominating it: Google Books is a good source.

Answering a request by providing an attestation: To attest a disputed term, meaning to prove that the term is actually used and satisfies the requirement of attestation as specified in inclusion criteria, do one of the following:

  • Assert that the term is in clearly widespread use.
  • Cite, on the article page, usage of the word in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year.

In any case, advise on this page that you have placed the citations on the entry page.

Closing a request: After a discussion has sat for more than a month without being "cited", or after a discussion has been "cited" for more than a week without challenge, the discussion may be closed. Closing a discussion normally consists of the following actions:

  • Deleting or removing the entry or sense (if it failed), or de-tagging it (if it passed). In either case, the edit summary or deletion summary should indicate what is happening.
  • Adding a comment to the discussion here with either RFV failed or RFV passed, indicating what action was taken.
  • Striking out the discussion header.

(Note: The above is typical. However, in many cases, the disposition is more complicated than simply "RFV failed" or "RFV passed".)

Archiving a request: At least a week after a request has been closed, if no one has objected to its disposition, the request may be archived to the entry's talk-page or to WT:RFVA. This consists of removing the discussion from this page, and copying it to the entry's talk-page (using {{archive-top|rfv}} + {{archive-bottom}}). Historically, it could also include simply commenting on the talk page with a link to the diff of the edit that removed the discussion from this page. Examples of discussions archived at talk pages: Talk:impromptu, Talk:baggs.

Oldest tagged RFVs


January 2014[edit]

shark fin[edit]

Rfv-sense "To remove the fin from a shark, usually for use in cooking." The more correct form is "to fin a/the shark(s)". The gerund "shark finning" and the agent noun "shark finner" definitely exist and are not being RFVed. --WikiTiki89 06:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Very common pattern of noun-verb conversion. Nothing guarantees that the process will lead to shark fin#Verb. You would think that such a verb could not be used intransitively and that the object would always be a shark. Something like "The fishermen sharkfin makos when ever they find them in their nets" might exist in the wild, but "The fishermen fin makos when ever they find them in their nets" seems more likely. DCDuring TALK 13:40, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I suppose there could be uses such as "He shark fins all day," but I haven't found any. --WikiTiki89 18:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Found one:
    • 2008, Paul J. Mila, Fireworks, AuthorHouse, page 42:
      “Yes, perhaps long-liners or poachers illegally shark finning. []
Ungoliant (falai) 14:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I had accepted that we need to attest to the present-tense or 'infinitive' forms, I don't think that is really true. If manner adverbs, like illegally in Ungoliant's example, modify a form of shark fin or there is a true past or passive, that would seem to be sufficient evidence that it is used as a true verb. DCDuring TALK 14:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Here’s another:
    • 2009, Fredric Archer, The New Shark Troller’s Bible, page 188:
      Once again, at the end of the day, everywhere you looked you could see at least one shark finning on the surface.
This one is ambiguous; it could be a verb ( [] at least one [of them] shark finning on the surface.), referring to finners mentioned in a previous sentence, or it could be a noun ( [] at least one [instance of] shark finning on the surface.). — Ungoliant (falai) 15:03, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
    • 1919, William Merriam Rouse, Peter the Devil in The Green Book Magazine, volume 22, Story-Press Association, page 22:
      [] and the nondescript few who wandered more or less aimlessly about the fifty-mile white beach that was Manaia, shark-finning, boiling bêche-de-mer, hunting hawk's-bill turtle.
Uses a hyphen. There you go: three cites, but two with issues. I’ll leave it to whoever closes the RFV to decide whether this term is verified.
If it passes, it definitely needs to be labelled rare. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I would still feel more comfortable if we could attest the infinite, simple present, or past tense forms. --WikiTiki89 16:26, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
The Archer cite does not seem to be the same meaning, or even the same POS. It is a subject-verb use rather than an attributive noun-verb use. The shark is displaying his fin above the water, not chopping off his own fin with his pearly whites. SpinningSpark 18:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
You're right, it's talking about a shark that is "finning" (fin#Verb definition #2). --WikiTiki89 18:20, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


RFV for the plural suffix (from the homographic French). Bd2412 closed the suffix's RFD discussion with "Moved to RfV" (see Talk:-x#Deletion discussion), but it was never sent here. I bring this here for that procedural reason. Regarding the suffix's attestation, I think binioux, Citations:cointreaux, Citations:maraboux, and Miniconjoux are enough to verify the independent use of -x in English. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not so sure they're English. The first quote for binioux is instructive: "...the bagpipes or binioux as they are known in France". The writer is obviously under the impression that binioux is the correct plural in French, and is using it as a French word. Being bad at speaking French doesn't change your French into English, it's just bad French. It would be like creating an English entry for buenas días because some people who don't speak Spanish very well think día is feminine. It looks to me like most, if not all, of these quotes are of people attempting to use the French plural for a French word, but getting it wrong (except for cointreaux, which apparently is the correct plural in French- see fr:cointreaux). Chuck Entz (talk) 04:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
To quote myself, mut. mut., in #-oth above (my post timestamped: 01:15, 18 January 2014), "I think that use of a plural-marking suffix in contexts that would be incorrect in the source language is a sign of its morphemity — it shows that the user of the suffix is thinking ‘[-x] marks a plural’, and not just that there are a bunch of listemes where the singular happens to end in [-u] and the plural meanwhile happens to end in [-ux]." Of course, uses of cointreaux in English do nothing to establish the morphemity of -x, since that plural could simply have been borrowed directly from French (rather than having been constructed independently in English). BTW, if *buenas días is attested in English, then yes, it should have some kind of entry (compare baristo). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:55, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
It's kind of ambiguous. On one hand, it's productive use in English by English speakers. But on the other, those same speakers consciously intend to form a plural in a non-English way. Is it English if English speakers try to purposely apply French grammar to French words that are used in English? It's really not different from Latin or Greek plurals. —CodeCat 00:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

April 2014[edit]


Is this really an adjective? allotted at OneLook Dictionary Search shows that many dictionaries make allotted in effect redirect to allot. AFAICT only WordNet shows it as an adjective, "assigned as a task" her allotted chores, but this seems to transfer meaning from the word modified to the modifier. Consider his allotted share of the garden. DCDuring TALK 20:38, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this is well suited for RFV. I would like to see a precedent of deleting adjective sections from past participles via RFV or a Beer parlour discussion supporting such deletion via RFV. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
It is perfectly well suited for a fact-based discussion. Either the word is attestably used as an adjective or it is not. The question of whether a term is an adjective is fairly clear cut and reasonable quickly resolved by resort to the facts of usage. The role of lawyerly argumentation is useful in evaluating the attestation evidence or in challenging the authority behind the criteria used. DCDuring TALK 11:23, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
There are no purely attestation-based criteria necessary for adjectivity. An adjective does not need to be comparable and does not need to be modifiable by "very" and the like. RFD is not forbidden from being "fact-based". All criteria listed at Wiktionary:English adjectives are merely hints; none of the criteria is alone necessary and the criteria are not jointly necessary. If Wiktionary:English adjectives were applied to "allotted", google books:"become allotted" would suggest this to be adjective; nonetheless, I do not take Wiktionary:English adjectives very seriously. In any case, this does not fit my idea of proper use of RFV, which should IMHO above all be used to find whether a term or a sense are actually used to convey meaning. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:29, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
You seem to ignore our non-legislated practice of requiring that an English adjective be comparable/gradable OR be used as a predicate OR have a sense distinct from the sense of the noun or verb form from which a separate identity is to be established. The predicate case is that hardest to apply for adjectives that are alleged to be conversions of past participles, because it often requires a high level of sensitivity to the language to reliably distinguish passive use of the past participle from predicate use of an adjective. This is the kind of thing that interpretation of actual evidence rather than armchair introspection and gum-flapping (let alone legislating) is well suited to resolving. DCDuring TALK 15:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, the putative practice you speak of is a non-legislated practice, meaning it is, if it exists, not a result of a vote or a Beer parlour discussion. Now, any evidence of this being a common practice? Do you know of past RFV outcomes that fit this putative practice? How many are they? For the record, I oppose the use of RFV for this. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:12, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, of course it can be an adjective, but I'm rather dubious about the comparative and superlative shown in the entry. Donnanz (talk) 10:21, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    Why of course? It can be used attributively, but so can nouns and ing-forms and ed-forms of verbs.
    1. Can it be shown to be gradable or comparative?
    2. Can it be used after become or seem?
    3. Is it ever unambiguously used as a predicate, ie, following a form of be with semantics clearly distinguished from a past participle used to form a passive?
    4. Does it have a sense that is not present in the ed-form of the verb?
    If it doesn't meet at least one of these tests we do not show it as an adjective. DCDuring TALK 11:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    All those hurdles? I'm virtually gobsmacked. Donnanz (talk) 11:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    If it doesn't meet at least one of these tests we do not show it as an adjective.
    I share your skepticism about comparability, but can it be used with very or too (gradability)? I don't think so. I've never run into usage that meets any of the other tests either, but there might be such usage. DCDuring TALK 13:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    1. The allotted tasks are less challenging than the other job expectations; the latter have no specific time set aside for their accomplishment.
    2. My days seem allotted either as a series of disasters and bad news, or boring montages of the same-ol'.
    3. Each is allotted a colour according to its priority. - Amgine/ t·e 06:45, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
    @Amgine: The first is attributive use of a past participle. (Would attested usage of "the circumnavigated globe" make circumnavigated an adjective?) The third is clearly a use of the verb in the passive. (Consider Each is allotted a color by rule of priority., which makes the agent explicit.) The second is the sole telling example. It could be argued that it is an ellipsis of the passive, but I think not. Three citations of such usage for each of the two senses would settle the matter. DCDuring TALK 13:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
  • There is enough sourcing on "This film has been modified from its original version to run in the allotted time" alone to support this as an adjective. Something can be an adjective while not taking comparatives or superlatives Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 14:36, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Your reason would imply that cicumnavigated should be considered an adjective, given usage such as:
  • 1965, G. B. Sansom, The Western World and Japan:
    Not many years after the discovery of the Americas and the opening of the Cape route to India, Christian missionaries were making their way to almost every part of the now circumnavigated globe
There is a clear path to justifying treating this as an adjective: that it attestably meet at least ONE of the tests of adjectivity, such as those listed above (There may be more.). There is no amount of attributive use alone that would compel treatment of this as an adjective. DCDuring TALK 15:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
While I don't have an opinion on the rest, wouldn't the modifying element be now circumnavigated in that quote? - Amgine/ t·e 18:28, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
@Amgine: Yes, but circumnavigated is the head of the modifying phrase. I searched for "now circumnavigated" to reduce the portion of the ocean that I had to boil to find relevant citations. DCDuring TALK 18:43, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, as a sailor, I would certainly consider a circumnavigated globe as qualitatively different from an uncircumnavigated one, in a comparable way an explored region differs from an unexplored one, a painted versus an unpainted canvas. In a related manner, an allotted hour or day is different from one unallotted. And that's entirely apart from parliamentary usage (throughout the commonwealth), the standard euphemisms allotted span, allotted hours, or allotted days to indicate length of life (or 70 years, whichever comes first?), and of course Google Books—whether religious, poetic, or otherwise. On another hand, your position that allotted is not adjectival is disputed by OED, Merriam-Webster, Cambridge... just wondering which authority is the basis for your position? - Amgine/ t·e 20:43, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
It appears there is enough sourcing to support allotted as an adjective. User:DCDuring, why do you fight words ending in -ed and -ing being defined as adjectives when they're clearly attestable as such? Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 16:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
@Purplebackpack89: To avoid the need to maintain English entries that convey no semantic information. All English nouns can be used attributively; all English past participles and -ing forms can be used in a variety of predictable ways. Perhaps you would enjoy adding complete adjective PoS sections to all (I do mean ALL) English noun entries, -ing-forms and past participles and complete noun sections to all -ing-form entries. In principle, each sense of the lemma form of a verb should have an appropriately reworded corresponding sense in the adjective section located on the same page as the section for the past participle and the -ing-form. Mutatis mutandis for nouns. DCDuring TALK 18:22, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it has to be done only by me, or immediately. What we just do is end the ridiculous deletion of -ed and -ing adjectives, and create more as needed. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be ALL, because, in practice, not all are used frequently enough to be attributable. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 15:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I've removed one sense as RFV-failed, and suppressed the comparative and superlative forms. The remaining sense has one good citation, and one iffy citation. It needs at least one more citation. Here's another iffy (rather verbal) citation: 1913, Engineering News, volume 69, page 344: As these lands became allotted, they were gradually cultivated through irrigation by a canal from the Yakima River, built in the earlier days by the Indians without outside assistance. - -sche (discuss) 21:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


Sense "(poetic) virginity, chastity." Sure. I'm putting it on my list of I wouldn't know where to start looking and I don't have a clue how it would be used if it is really used. Cites, please.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:24, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Out of all 6 pages of Google Books results for "her thyme" -herb -garlic -cottonwood, these are the only results that look plausible to me: [1] [2] [3]. More context for the third result can be seen here. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:10, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
The cites might fit a definition like "fertility or sexuality". I don't see "chastity". DCDuring TALK 00:53, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that it's hard to draw the line between symbolism and lexical meaning, and harder still to pin down the meaning of metaphorical speech- but a line has to be drawn. There are lots of poems that refer to beautiful women as roses, and also refer to the "thorns" encountered when they're "plucked" . That doesn't mean we should have senses at rose, thorn or pluck that capture this usage.
To put it another way: the plant known as thyme may symbolize virginity and chastity, but the term "thyme" doesn't necessarily mean "virginity and chastity" as a word. The former is the realm of an encyclopedia, the latter the realm of a dictionary. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:02, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Poetry provides the poorest attestation for contemporary English, ambiguity, allusion, metaphor, and prosody often confusing matters enormously. Also IMO metaphors are often given too much weight in our RfVs. The distinction between "live" metaphors and "dead" ones is worth keeping in mind, even though it is sometimes hard to distinguish between "live" and "dead".
I'm not exactly sure how to handle the symbolic meanings of colors and natural things, as, for example, seems to have been common in the Middle Ages, possibly especially in Christendom. DCDuring TALK 15:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I based this entry on the old Irish song "A Bunch of Thyme". There is a very detailed analysis of this song at http://www.irishmusicdaily.com/bunch-of-thyme which clearly states its use as a euphamism for virginity and/or purity.--Dmol (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

@Dmol: Interesting article, but some of the other actual usage doesn't seem to me to quite fit "virginity".
Also, the song is in English. Is it an adaptation of an older Irish song? Did "thyme" have some specific association with virginity in Irish culture? DCDuring TALK 14:31, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
The article actually says: "Thyme represents the girl’s purity and consequently it represents her hopes and prospects for future happiness." This is metaphor, not a meaning of the word. Dbfirs 13:09, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Is it lexical information to include as a definition the symbolic meaning of the thing represented by a word (and its synonyms), ie, a synset? Would only an entry be merited only for the language(s) of the culture(s) in which the symbolic meaning existed, at least at one time.
I would think that only when the symbolic meaning has somehow transferred from the referent itself to one or more of the synset would a definition be warranted. So if blue were at one time a symbol of sadness, at some time the meaning transferred to the word, which now has the sense "sad". I certainly doubt that thyme ever remotely approached that kind of meaning transfer. Note also that near-synonyms for the color blue are not near synonyms for sad. DCDuring TALK 13:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I've added two quotes from traditional songs, one from the 17th century and another later one from (i think) the 19th. I also added two references, one as discussed above and another I found. There is another website, http://www.irishpage.com/songs/thyme.htm , that makes the same connection and give the original Irish language lyrics. I also changed the definition to say that it is "an allegory..." which seems more accurate. --Dmol (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


Finnish: "A selfie taken through a mirror, especially one that is published in the internet."

Nominated on 26 April 2014.

What about Finnish teinipeili and meitsie? Can you find the results on books or on groups? -- 05:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Teinipeili (lit. "teen mirror") has been around for years and finding three quotes in newspapers would be a piece of cake. First internet appearances of meitsie seem to be from January this year, and thus it does not fulfil our "spanning over one year" -criteria.--Hekaheka (talk) 17:53, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Turkish word 'sanalgı' has been around for years and you may find three quotes in newspapers [4] but it was deleted. Is it not same with 'teinipeili'?--12:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
If they were actually nominated, someone might check. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:45, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

No quotations in the entry, no quotations in this RFV. Please add quotations or this will be deleted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:19, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

@Hekaheka: could you add some citations, please? I couldn't find any on Google Books or Issuu, and I only found one citation on Google Scholar, but you have better access to Finnish newspapers and the like than I do. - -sche (discuss) 01:50, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Allright, I'll get the quotes. Meanwhile, some numbers. Teinipeli gets 50,000+ Google hits in a direct search. English is at least 100 times as big as Finnish as measured by the number of speakers. Thus, an English word relatively as frequently used should get at least 5 M hits. --Hekaheka (talk) 07:25, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Now quoted, IMHO. @Dan Polansky:, do you agree? --Hekaheka (talk) 11:08, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

@User:Hekaheka: note that {{ping}} does not work lately for some reason; it did not ping me.
I see three quotations at teinipeili, formatted accoring to WT:ELE, providing the date and identifying the source. I do not know whether they are from permanently recorded media (WT:ATTEST), but I do not contradict the claim. The safe core of permanently recorded media is Google books and Usenet, which they are not from, but again, they may still be permanently recorded and lie outside of the core. What makes you think they are permanently recorded? --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
No. 1 is a university dissertation published both in book format, of which ISBN is provided, and in pdf-format for which the URL is provided in the quotation
No. 2 is from the blog series of the Institute for the Languages of Finland, the official guardian of the purity of Finnish language. Their (electronic only!) dictionary is to Finnish what OED is to English. They archive permanently everything they publish.
No. 3 is from the pages of YLE, the national broadcasting company. They, too, archive everything that they have published in the electronic era, and they have also made a lot of their earlier productions available through internet, see here: [5] The pages are in Finnish, but if you type "teinipeili" in the search window you get links to the YLE articles in which the word is used.
--Hekaheka (talk) 21:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Finnish: "selfie"

Nominated on 26 April 2014.

Hekaheka said in April 2014: First internet appearances of meitsie seem to be from January this year, and thus it does not fulfil our "spanning over one year" -criteria

Three quotations are in the entry but they are not from durably archived sources. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:19, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Define "durably archived", and explain to me in which sense they are worse than the quotes provided for "selfie". The quotes for meitsie are from the pages of three well-established newspapers. --Hekaheka (talk) 07:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
If they're print newspapers, they're durably archived. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I remember cases where we have accepted postings from discussion groups. All but one of the current quotes for "selfie" are from non-print sources, one even appears to be a transcript of a radio programme. All three newspapers I quoted are print newspapers but the quotes are from their web pages. --Hekaheka (talk) 09:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
@User:Hekaheka: The safe core of "permanently recorded media" (WT:ATTEST) is Google books and Usenet. Usenet is a collection of discussion groups. Not any and all discussion groups on the Internet are considered permanently recorded media.
Can you please format the quotations at meitsie as per WT:ELE, especially providing dates, author, and work title? --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Now done, sorry for the delay. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@User:Hekaheka It is now apparent that the quotations in meitsie do not meet the "spanning at least a year" requirement of WT:ATTEST. Furthermore, the quotations seem to be mentions, not uses: "Santtu Toivonen has claimed the fatherhood of meitsie. First, he asked for proposals from his Facebook friends. Other suggestions he got included omis, omakas, itsi, itsari, itsukka, meikkis, meitsis, meitzu, peilaus and peilitsu" talks about the word and mentions other words that could have been used instead of that word. Similarly, 'I wonder if "meitsie" will become to primarily mean such self portraits which the speaker doesn't take quite seriously himself…' seems to talk about what the word is going to mean rather than using the word to convey meaning. --Dan Polansky (talk) 22:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
This is a new word, still chiefly used in speech and in non-permanently recorded media. Therefore, it is not so odd if majority of permanently recorded uses are from articles that discuss the word itself. I would turn your argument upside down: if media such as the country's leading newspaper (Helsingin Sanomat) and the homepages of the guardian of Finnish language (Kotus) publish an article about it, it is most likely used. Also, 74,000 Google hits and hundreds of hits in picture search for e.g. "meitsie 2015" must count as something. --Hekaheka (talk) 05:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Further, you may want to reflect what the word "or" means in our definition of attestation criteria:
  1. clearly widespread use, or
  2. use in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year

--Hekaheka (talk) 05:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

In the previous paragraph (including "it is not so odd if majority of permanently recorded uses are from articles that discuss the word itself"), you are arguing against WT:ATTEST, claiming that WT:ATTEST is too strict, right? I am not convinced by the arguments; we should not include emerging neologisms at any and all costs; they should meet WT:ATTEST, IMHO.
As for clearly widespread use, my position is that "meitsie" is a Finnish neologism that is not in clearly widespread use, and that "clearly widespread use" item of WT:ATTEST is for such obvious cases as "dog" or "city".
Maybe the hot word lovers ({{hot word}}) will come here and arbitrarily declare this to be a hot word, and thereby defy most of attestation requirements (durably archived, used rather than mentioned, spanning a year); I don't know.
One more thing. Citations:meitsie does not get deleted even if this RFV fails. I have copied your quotations there to prevent their accidental lost. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

May 2014[edit]


I couldn't confirm the existence of this word in Japanese. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I found a couple of works related to Shinto and Japanese mythology that use 隱身 in Japanese (not read おんしん but かくりみ, though): [6] [7] [8]. Whym (talk) 01:18, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Whym: thanks. With this reading it makes more sense, it's also in 隱身@Weblio.jp. Apparently it's a Shinto term. Could you improve the definition, please? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Our favorite IP strikes again. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Does this have to do with the above entry or related entries? What were the edits?
@Whym:, @Eirikr: I'll leave the above entry in your capable hands. :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)If you look at the edit history, it was created by back in 2012. Any time you find something in our Japanese entries that's wrong in ways that just don't make sense, the odds are it traces back to this same person. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:38, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Note also that the initial character here, , is the obsolete kyūjitai for . As such, the entry at 隱身 should only ever be a stub entry marked as {{alternative spelling of|隠身}}, directing readers to the lemma entry content at 隠身.
FWIW, I find evidence for both the readings kakurimi (google books:"隠身"+"かくりみ", 81 hits) and kakuremi (google books:"隠身"+"かくれみ", 28 hits). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Atitarev, Eirikr: I tried my best at 隠身 and 隱身. Quotations are not yet added. Whym (talk) 13:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I haven't done much research on this, but 隱形 (隠形) probably has the same problem. Whym (talk) 13:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Whym: Thank you! I see you're using {{ja-altread}}. I haven't used it before @Eirikr: has some other way to put together terms with multiple reading but I don't remember exactly. Just by repeating the headword on two lines? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:40, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


Allegedly a Turkish word meaning "camp".

Allegged inflected forms: definite accusative düşerge, plural düşergeler.

Someone doubts the existence of the word entry, so I request attestation. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:22, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Cited since May, but the citations don’t have translations. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:33, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Düşerge is "pay, miras payı" at Turkish. But it is not "camp". "düşərgə" is "camp" and Azeri's word. A group try to show like Turkish. --123snake45 (talk) 14:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
@123snake45: what do the citations at Citations:düşerge say? — Ungoliant (falai) 15:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I've just added the translations. -- 09:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

RFV-passed, it seems. - -sche (discuss) 01:54, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

It is mistake. Düşerge is pay, "miras payı" at the Turkish. It isn't "kamp". Camp is düşerge (düşərgə) at the Azerbaycanca. --123snake45 (talk) 01:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
@Sinek, Dijan: can you take a look at the citations at Citations:düşerge and clarify if the translations are accurate / if düşerge is a Turkish word for "camp"? - -sche (discuss) 01:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
  • 1966 Hüseyin Baykara, Azerbaycan'da yenileşme hareketleri: XIX. yüzyıl

This is Turkish: Bu eski ve zengin ülke, muhtelif ırklara mensup insan akınlarına asırlarca bir geçit ve düşerge yeri olmuştur.
If we adapt this to Azerbaijani it would be: Bu əski və zəngin ölkə müxtəlif irqlərə mənsub insan axınlarına əsrlərcə bir keçid və düşərgə yeri olmuşdur.

  • 1997 Türkiye Halk Kültürlerini Araştırma ve Geliştirme Genel Müdürlüğü, ‎Türkiye Kültür Bakanlığı, Milletlerarası Türk Halk Kültürü Kongresi

This is Turkish: Gelip bir dağın dameninde düşerge eylediler
If we adapt this to Azerbaijani it would be: Gəlib bir dağın damənində düşərgə elədilər.

  • 2001, Ahmet Kabaklı, Türk Edebiyatı - 327-332. sayılar

This is Turkish: Ölüm ve rezalet düşergeleri" Bizim değil, sizin icadınızdır.
If we adapt this to Azerbaijani it would be: Ölüm və rəzalət düşərgələri bizim deyil sizil icadınızdır.

  • 2005, Cabbar Ertürk, Erol Cihangir, Kızılordu'dan Kafkas millî lejyonuna: bir Türk'ün ikinci dünya harbi hatıraları

This is Turkish: Gündüz Esed'in gelişinden sonra yorgun halde düşergeye [kampa] döndük.
If we adapt this to Azerbaijani: Gündüz Əsədin gəlişindən sonra yorğun halda düşərgəyə döndük.

The Azerbaijani ones are not translations, some of the words that are used in the sentences are not frequently used in Azerbaijani. For example you may say: Bu köhnə və varlı ölkə müxtəlif irqlərə mənsub insan axınlarına əsrlərlə bir keçid və düşərgə yeri olmuşdur; Səhər Əsədin gəlməyindən / Əsəd gələndən sonra yorğun vəziyyətdə düşərgəyə qayıtmışıq, etc. -- 16:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

June 2014[edit]


Added by an IP that I blocked for responding to speedy deletion of a few unattestable entries with a couple dozen more, including "igazib" and "gagladon". There were a couple I left alone because they're attestable, and then there's this one: I found two cites, but not three. It seems plausible enough, but I'd like confirmation, given the source.Chuck Entz (talk) 03:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I think this should be moved to the two-word phrase:
SpinningSpark 15:00, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I think this shows an interesting use of "nickel", but does not necessarily support "nickel brain" as a set phrase. --WikiTiki89 15:35, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

plum blossom[edit]

Rfv-sense: "The blossom of the Prunus mume."

I suspect that this was created because it was a translation of a species-limited CJKV term, not based on actual usage in English. As it stands it is misleading. DCDuring TALK 22:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

  • The Wikipedia article on prunus mume has said for a long time that: "The flower is usually called plum blossom", and provides a citation for that proposition. bd2412 T 13:06, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
    @BD2412: That citation is a translation of an old Chinese work, which would probably support my suspicion as to the source of the term. I really don't think that hyponymic translations should be used to justify overly specific definitions, unless we are to completely write off our role as a monolingual dictionary. DCDuring TALK 13:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
    Moreover, the book does not actually use plum blossom as a translation for the flower of Prunus mume, but rather mei-flower, as the translator explains in the introduction (page lv therof). DCDuring TALK 13:33, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, if that's the route we're going:
  • 1969, Ernest Henry Wilson, ‎Daniel J. Foley, The Flowering World of "Chinese" Wilson, p. 63:
    Japan holds flower festivals during many months of the year, beginning with that of the plum blossom (Prunus mume) in February and ending with that of the chrysanthemum in November, but the most popular is that of the cherry blossom which falls in early April.
  • 1974, Yoshiaki Mihara, Agricultural Meteorology of Japan, p. 25:
    The plum blossom is the earliest of all the flowers in Japan. The flowering date of the plum (Prunus Mume) has also been extensively studied.
  • 1983, Edwin T. Morris, The Gardens of China: History, Art, and Meanings, p. 173:
    Hsiang Sheng-mo (1 597-1 658), "Prunus mume" (mei hua) in "Landscapes, Flowers, and Birds." The plum blossom that bloomed against the naked wood was the sign of spring and renewal.
I can't say whether this is idiomatic, since the fruit of the plant is an apricot, which is technically just a pale plum. bd2412 T 13:48, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps context is an issue. Among native speakers, plum blossom would seem to be understood as "flower of the Prunus mume" only in the context of discussions about oriental flora, the Orient itself, and in reference to products or art associated with the Orient. I suppose it could all be done in a usage note. I can only hope that the translations respect the narrowness of the usage. DCDuring TALK 15:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment. In any case, this only differs from sense one in that it identifies a specific species of plum blossom. bd2412 T 18:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: in the OED. Ƿidsiþ 18:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
That the fruit of Prunus mume is called a Japanese apricot and the tree goes by that name as well is sufficient, I suppose. I have added some material to the entry to clarify some of what is idiomatic about it. DCDuring TALK 19:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually, Prunus mume is really neither an apricot nor a plum, but something without a clear one-to-one English translation, except the lesser-known loanwords ume and mei. Botanically, it's definitely much closer to the apricot, but judging from the Wikipedia article, most of the culinary products use plum in the English name. From this I would guess that "plum" is the older, more established usage, but "apricot" is the current prescriptivist favorite. I don't think that the "it's an apricot, not a plum" argument is sufficient in itself to prove that it's idiomatic, but I'd be curious how references to the blossoms of Prunus salicina are translated, since that's the Japanese fruit most solidly identified in English usage as a plum- in the US (at least in California, where I live), it's actually far better known than the original European plum, Prunus domestica. The blossoms have deeply iconic cultural significance with both the Chinese and Japanese, and so are more likely to be found in English translations, while those of Prunus salicina are no doubt of secondary importance to the fruit. By the way, I'll have to see if I can spend some time sorting through our East Asian fruit tree terms, since many of them seem to be either confused or vague. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:21, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Prunus mume more or less specifies the bearer of the blossom. Simple vernacular terms often refer to more than one species, sometimes to different genera, families, orders, even classes and phyla. Chinese plum is an example, by no means exceptional. The set of English vernacular names that have a one-to-one correspondence to species names not only doesn't cover many species, but also is often not used except in limited contexts, though many of the contexts are in print. The English vernacular names for species not native to English-speaking lands are a challenge as there may be one or more "official" names; names based on similarity of appearance to a species that is native to English-speaking lands, qualified by one or more adjectives associating it with a region (eg, Japanese, Chinese); and transliterations of non-English names.
Plum blossom is one of a narrower set of terms that have a connection to vernacular names, but also a cultural meaning in a culture that has a strong cultural influence on the English language. DCDuring TALK 11:35, 27 June 2014 (UTC)


As far as I can tell, this is only ever mentioned in the context of the A Song of Ice and Fire books (which means it fails WT:FICTION), and even in those books and other books which discuss them, it's a title like "Queen" rather than a name. - -sche (discuss) 23:40, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

It is a rapidly growing name in the united states. See this article --Mnidjm (talk) 01:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider 146 in the US in one year to be "rapidly growing". That number is minuscule. --WikiTiki89 02:08, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
[9] Ancestry.com finds 39 hits, about ten baby girls named Khaleesi. Birth records of Nevada are probably durably archived, but I cannot reach them or format proper citations. Betsy, less fashionable according to the Mnidjim's article, gets 2 437 163 hits. To quote WikiTiki, this kind of result means Khaleesi is very, very rare.--Makaokalani (talk) 09:12, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Rapidly growing, as in 5 babies with the name in 2010, 28 in 2011, then 146 in 2012. --Mnidjm (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2014 (UTC)


This has the sole sense: "A very thin person." The quotations that I find seem to be adjectival. Worth attesting. google books:"skinnymalinky", google groups:"skinnymalinky", skinnymalinky at OneLook Dictionary Search. We have skinnymalinks, which I do not question, since that seems easy to attest using google books:"skinnymalinks". --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)


""Railroad built upon an evened, ground level length of land." This is supposed to be an adjective, not a noun; also, all I could find relating to railroads was sense 1 (crossings on the same level). Luciferwildcat added this sense so I am not very hopeful. Equinox 19:05, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

  • It seems very plausible as an adjective and would most most used in the context of railroads, I think, though other rights of way may be contexts as well. "A unprotected at-grade crossing" might be an example. DCDuring TALK 19:14, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Not so plausible to me. It's SOP use of at + grade (sense 8: ground level). You can find usage of "at grade", "at or above grade", "at or below grade", with hyphenation when used as a modifier. Do we have entries for at-sea-level or below-sea-level? Chuck Entz (talk) 19:32, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
I might add that grade crossing and level crossing are basically the same thing as at-grade crossing. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Because of all the references to academic grades, it's hard to be sure, but searches with preceding words such as "an", "no", "many", etc. and with pluralizing to reduce the number of false hits turns up nothing in Google Books for a noun. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Never mind. I was only thinking of the other sense. I can't see a noun meaning for this. DCDuring TALK 21:43, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 22:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


Back in December 2013 someone questioned the existence of ap as an English adjective meaning "In or relating to the apothecaries' system of measures", but nothing more was done about it, so now I'm bringing it here. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:47, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

To start off, here are a few hits in reference works: here, here, and here, and one use: here. Maybe not complete by CFI standards, but at least enough to show it wasn't made completely up. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:11, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

July 2014[edit]


It looks like the term is in use (e.g., Dioscliosta David Guetta), but I can't find anything permanent enough to count. Not in GBooks, GGroups, or Foinse.ie. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 04:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

There's focloir.ie, but it's more of a mention than a use. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes... that's the 1959 English-Irish Dictionary, which is as near to the Official Modern Irish dictionary as is available. (Ó Donaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla is the other half, from almost twenty years later, and doesn't include this word, although diosc and liosta are both present.)
Which leads to an awkward situation: anyone looking up "discography" in the closest thing to an official dictionary of Irish will find dioscliosta. And just because it hasn't shown up in print yet, it's appearing in other places and a print appearance would seem to be a matter of time. If someone can find it in a citable medium, then no harm, no foul. If not... I dunno. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 05:06, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
No, it is not listed in the 1959 English-Irish Dictionary; the link above points to Foras na Gaeilge's new English-Irish dictionary. Irish is an LDL, so a single mention is sufficient for it to pass RFV, but since Foras na Gaeilge coins its own Irish words in response to a perceived gap in the language (rather than waiting for speakers to develop terms naturally and then reporting them), I'm not inclined to take its word for the realness of this term. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Huh. That's not exactly clear from that page. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 23:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
It is once you get used to how that site is organized. The pages that say "New English-Irish Dictionary" beneath the focloir.ie logo belong to the new dictionary. The Ó Donaill and de Bhaldraithe databases are at breis.focloir.ie, e.g. http://breis.focloir.ie/en/eid/discography. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:49, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Mexican beer dermatitis[edit]

The phenomenon itself is thoroughly plausible, since many plants in the family that limes belong to contain photosensitizing substances- but I only found one usenet post, which linked to an online article, which referred to a journal article published in 2010. It looks like a one-off descriptive phrase that never caught on. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:19, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Journal of the American Medical Association - Dermatology: [10] 2010
  • New York Daily News [11] 2010
  • National Public Radio [12] 2010
  • "The Doctors" TV show [13] 2011
  • Canadian Dermatology Association [14] 2014

-- 10:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

margarita dermatitis[edit]

By the same user. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't rfv this one because this quote seems to point to there being actual usage, though Google Books and Google Groups don't show it. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
But even that quote is just a mention. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • BBC [15] 2006
  • ScienceDaily [16] 2007
  • KCRW radio [www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/good-food/modernist-drinks-geology-and-terroir-margarita-dermatitis] 2013
  • USA Today [17] 2013
  • About.com [18] 2013
  • Canadian Dermatology Association [19] 2014
  • New England Journal of Medicine [20] Margarita Photodermatitis - 1993 (yes this is a somewhat different term; seeing if it should be added or left alone, if these are being deleted; there's also the alternate meaning for "lime disease" being phytophotodermatitis from the fruit 'lime' (shown in some of the links above))

-- 10:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


Allegedly Slovene for "apple tree". Since Slovene is not an less-documented language per Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion/Well documented languages, I ask for three quotations attesting the word in use to convey meaning, as per WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:44, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

You don't have to be so overly formal about it. We all know what RFV is for. —CodeCat 20:49, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Don't the refs suffice? They are from the site of SAZU (w:Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts). The second one is from a web edition of a 19th century dictionary by w:sl:Maks Pleteršnik, AFAICT. --biblbroksдискашн 21:03, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Not in this case. Slovene is not an LDL so we need three real citations of usage. But we probably won't find any because this is a dialectal term that would not likely be used in published texts. —CodeCat 21:06, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Re: "We all know what RFV is for.": As you can see, many people have a poor idea of RFV. Nothing wrong with being clear and explicit so that even newbies can know what is going on, which you call "overly formal". --Dan Polansky (talk)
Indeed, people sometimes post things here asking to verify the pronunciation, which isn't the job of this page. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Company names[edit]

These need citations meeting WT:COMPANY rules -- Liliana 21:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)



(company sense only) -- Liliana 21:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

This already passes. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:25, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Where are the citations? - -sche (discuss) 15:16, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, I mean it passes WT:COMPANY as "To be included, the use of the company name other than its use as a trademark (i.e., a use as a common word or family name) has to be attested." It's attested as town in Finland. It would seem trivial to type these citations up. I just said it passes, I never claimed to have typed the citations up. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
the use of the company name. The city sense is not the use of the company name. -- Liliana 09:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)





  • I oppose this RFV nomination. This is a very unwise nomination. These entries are single-word ones, capable of hosting lexicographical material such as etymology, pronunciation and translation into other languages; multiple of the nominated items already do. WT:COMPANY is not supported by consensus, as per Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2012-02/CFI and company names. WT:COMPANY is not a plain RFV regulation; it is one that places additional hurdles on company names, for reasons that I still do not undertand and that are IMHO not explained at Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2012-02/CFI and company names. The opposers have not explained why company names must be excluded while place names can be included. The arguing in the vote is along the line "we need some rules or else will have too many company names", but the opposers have not proposed any rules, and have not explained what is wrong with having a large number attested single-word company names. As for plain RFV nomination, all terms are clearly in widespread use, and RFV does not apply. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:32, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    • We have a certain user here who often likes to say "no consensus -- status quo ante". Keφr 08:50, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
      • For one thing, the status quo ante before this RFV for the nominated terms in the namespace is that Wiktionary has them. But let us look broader, at the status of company names in the mainspace in general, not just the nominated ones. As for most of the nominated terms, they are quite recent, so they are a poor indication of "ante": Motorola (since August 2012), Samsung (since August 2012), Hyundai (since September 2012‎), Toshiba (since March 2013‎), and Mitsubishi (since April 2013‎). However, Wiktionary had company names as early as in 2004 - Sony; Apple, BMW, FedEx, Gibson, Google, IBM,Kawasaki, Mobil, Nokia, Peugeot, Pixar, Raleigh, Toyota and Volvo are all from 2005, all as company names. More company names are listed at User talk:Dan Polansky#Company names. There were some deletions, including Atari, Exxon, Microsoft and Verizon, and probably other. As for the current WT:COMPANY text in CFI, it was entered there without a vote and even without a discussion AFAICT, so it never was supported by consensus by any stretch; the diffs that I found are diff (22 May 2005) and diff (21 November 2007). So I am not sure what your point really is. In any case, I consider this use of RFV to be an abuse of it, by a person who could not get his or her way by a proper consensus-based channel, in Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-05/Names_of_specific_entities and Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-05/Placenames_with_linguistic_information_2 under former user name Prince Kassad, newly Liliana-60. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:41, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
        • It may have been added without prior discussion, but nobody removed it. The above-linked vote on your proposal has failed with 9 opposes against 8 supports. Which for me indicates that the community feels that WT:COMPANY is still in force, and supports keeping it in place for the time being. And even if the policy is changed, the citations collected here (or lack thereof) can still be useful to make drafting the new policy more of an evidence-based discussion instead of armchair consensus-building. Keφr 12:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
          • The fact that no one removed the offending part from the CFI after it was added is wholly immaterial. I for one never felt comfortable making changes to a policy page that said at the top of the page that changes should not be done without a vote. For some time, I naively thought that CFI was really based on consensus; I only discovered later that it was not so. As a result, I set up a multitude of votes to remove things from CFI that were not supported by consensus. Some were a pass, some were a fail. Some of the best examples of things that were in CFI for ages with most people not taking them seriously is the attributive-use rule, removed via Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-05/Names_of_specific_entities. The trick of adding stuff to policy pages and hoping that people will not remove them for the fear of edit war was tried in Wiktionary multiple times by various editors, with a considerable success. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:09, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't know, which rule could be applicable here but I vote keep all and I think we should keep all notable one word company names for the same reason we keep countries and place names. People are likely to look them up, search translations or want to find etymology, pronunciation. The more linguistic info such entries contain, the more important and interesting they are. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:48, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I have added four citations for Hyundai which I believe meet our strictures for brand names. bd2412 T 15:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC)



  1. Using specious arguments or discourse.
    a plausible speaker

See Wiktionary:Tea_room/2014/July#a _plausible_ speaker uses specious arguments or discourse?

Chuck Entz (talk) 02:06, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

If a speaker says of someone else that He is a "plausible speaker, using sense 2, he is failing to endorse the truth of what the "plausible speaker" says. That is a kind of understated or polite criticism of the "plausible speaker" or the arguments made. Some dictionaries seem to have found that usage has elevated this kind of implication to the status of a pejorative definition. A collocation like "plausible liar" makes it difficult to determine whether plausible itself has the negative meaning rather than liar alone. I wonder what kind of quotations would give use evidence: something like "not true, but plausible"? DCDuring TALK 02:48, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Having looked at a few examples, even "not true, but plausible" doesn't assure us of plausible having negative rather than neutral valence, IMO. DCDuring TALK 02:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Senses 2 through 4 were part of the original entry, created in 2004 by a user who was apparently mass-importing data to pad out the new dictionary. The second sense, especially, is not much better than random verbiage: what does "obtaining approbation" have to do with plausibility? What does "specifically pleasing" mean? It looks like the first sense was added because the other senses have little to do with the one meaning in widespread, modern use. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
To my surprise, the New Oxford Dictionary of English (2001) does have this: "(of a person) skilled at producing persuasive arguments, especially ones intended to deceive: a plausible liar. Assuming OUP are right, senses #2 and #4 to me also need verifying. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: The "obtaining approbation" sense fits with the etymology. The entry is from MW 1913, from which so many entries have been copied and remain without significant alteration. The ARTFL copy of MW 1913's definitions follows:
  1. Worthy of being applauded; praiseworthy; commendable; ready. [Obs.] Bp. Hacket.
  2. Obtaining approbation; specifically pleasing; apparently right; specious; as, a plausible pretext; plausible manners; a plausible delusion. Plausible and popular arguments." Clarendon.
  3. Using specious arguments or discourse; as, a plausible speaker. <-- 4 appearing worthy of belief [MW10]. Now the most common sense, and a good sense, rather than the traditional bad sense. --> Syn. -- Plausible, Specious. Plausible denotes that which seems reasonable, yet leaves distrust in the judgment. Specious describes that which presents a fair appearance to the view and yet covers something false. Specious refers more definitely to the act or purpose of false representation; plausible has more reference to the effect on the beholder or hearer. An argument may by specious when it is not plausible because its sophistry is so easily discovered.
MW 1913, following the practice of many dictionaries presents the definitions in the plausible, even probable, order of their development. We rely on the more prominent placement of the "obsolete" label.
I believe that all of the synonyms in all of the definitions reflect words that could be substituted for plausible at the beginning of the 20th century and earlier. From them one could inductively arrive at "the" meaning. For our style of definition, definition 2 seems to contain a contradiction: "specious" does not fit with the others (IMO).
I have no idea why definition 4 is formatted as it is and whose usage note it contains. The synonyms discussion seems to suggest that definitions 2 and 3 had been the prevailing senses. This fits with my finding of some modern philosophy (logic) texts that had the need to explicitly distinguish between "specious" and "possible"-type glosses of plausible. I don't really doubt that MW 1913 was accurately reporting 1-3 as definitions that were or had been in common use. I think this needs cleanup, to convert from "synonyms" lists to proper definitions using the current meanings of preferably unambiguous defining words or at least use of modern synonyms. This takes more than a hit-and-run effort, IMO.
Move to RfC. DCDuring TALK 12:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


This better pass WT:FICTION. --WikiTiki89 17:53, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

There's no use in lion about it. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

big balls[edit]

Alleggedly means "courage". I request attesting quotations per WT:ATTEST. This was already once in RFV, but the RFV closure was irregular and no attesting quotations were provided. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the previous discussion DP refers to is at Talk:big_balls. Equinox 20:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Doesn't just "balls" mean courage? Purplebackpack89 02:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
    Regardless of what "balls" means, I request evidence in the form of attesting quotations that the phrase "big balls" is actually attested to mean courage, as per WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    Does that help? --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 08:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    Let us have a look. I'll take the 1st quotation and replace "big balls" with X, and let us see whether the quotation suggests X means courage. The result is this: "Biffy says, “You've got X for a girl Bubbles. I like your style. Give it to him. Juicy's rotten, but Bubbles. You've got the scevusa on your hands now.” Bubbles drops the hot dog, and calls Biffy and Juicy some un-young ladylike words.". Now, do you think it can be inferred from the sentence that X means courage? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    Yes, I do, actually. Do you not? Certainly it is clear from two of those quotes that it's not a literal reference to body parts. The other quotes are similar: they are general approbations with a clear meaning. Unless you are demanding one of the quotes from a dictionary of slang, or a quote of something like "He showed that he had big balls by standing up by which I mean he was very brave" or something equally awful. (I'll grant that the quote you copied here could be reduced to the first two sentences, but I wanted to find a balance between excluding context, and including too much.) --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 09:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    I certainly do not require dictionary quotations, since that is not what WT:ATTEST allows. I cannot really infer the meaning of "courage" from the quotations, but then I am not a native speaker. Let other editors comment on the merits of the provided quotations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    In my experience, [big] balls (without the) doesn't simply mean courage: sometimes it means assertiveness, but usually means gall, nerve or chutzpah. A former employer of mine used to say things like "you've got balls the size of an elephant to complain about that" Chuck Entz (talk) 16:00, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but apparently not listed. - -sche (discuss) 17:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Lugaid mac Con Roí[edit]

Cú Roí[edit]

Does mythology count as a fictional universe? 'Cause I really don't think these guys' names are used out of context in an attributive sense, in either English or Irish. (So this RFV applies to both languages and if it fails, I'm requesting that the whole pages be deleted.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Oy vey, there are 74 pages in Category:en:Irish mythology, many of which could probably be subsumed under this RFV, but I just don't have the time to go through them all now. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't count mythology as a fictional universe. People misuse the word fictional to mean anything that (in their belief) is not factual, but really fiction implies a specific genre, in which the plot is intended to be understood as not being factual. --WikiTiki89 22:37, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree, old mythologies are different from fiction, and I dispute that WT:FICTION applies to old mythologies. Certainly, all of WT:FICTION's examples are works of (modern) fiction rather than mythologies. For new stories which are mythological/religious stories according to some and fictional stories according to others (e.g. the stories of Gerald Gardner or L Ron Hubbard), the situation is less clear.
We do have a separate policy that "No individual person should be listed as a sense in any entry whose page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic." But there's disagreement on whether or not that policy should be enforced when the person in question was important to a mythology or religion — see WT:RFD#محمد بن عبد الله — so "Lugaid mac Con Roí" is potentially still in a grey area. (Bah.) - -sche (discuss) 01:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Speaking as someone with an interest in Irish Onomastics, I'd say that the name elements are dictionary-worthy, but to include a full person's name as a name seems encyclopaedic and out of scope. See, eg, Badb: As a word, it's the name of a goddess. For further details, history, great feats, symbology, etc, etc; the Wikipedia entry exists.

In this instance, Lugaid is a name. Cú Roí is a name. Lugaid mac Con Roí is a person. He serves as an attestation of the name elements, an example of them in use, but this place is a dictionary, not a who's-who.

Similarly, I'd say that Finn is a lemma, definition "an Old Irish name, Descendants Irish: Fionn", but Finn mac Cumail, or Fionn mac Cumhail, or Finn MacCool are not. He's an attestation of the name, and there might be an argument for a (not-exhaustive) list of noteworthy bearers of the name, but I submit that we distinguish between names as words, and names as people. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Per User:Catsidhe's comments and my own, I've deleted Lugaid mac Con Roí but kept Cú Roí. What should be done with e.g. Conall the Victorious and Conall Cernach? - -sche (discuss) 22:29, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
See also WT:RFD#Ailill_mac_M.C3.A1ta. - -sche (discuss) 22:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Conall is a name, cernach is an adjectival byname (from cern (victory, noun)), both are in scope. Conall Cernach is a person, and is something for Wikipedia to deal with.
At some point I want to go through and add Irish names in some sort of almost systematic way. I can probably work on decomposing some of these mythical names first. Names like Conchobar, Fergus, Finn, Conall, and Cairbre are not uncommon in the Annals, so that should be easy enough. Manannán is only a god's name as far as I know, but it's attested well enough as well. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 23:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

August 2014[edit]

make out[edit]

Rfv-sense: (intransitive) To succeed in seducing; to have sex. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I think so. 'make out' = "succeed, turn out well/as expected"...I can certainly see this used in certain contexts. For instance: I took Jennifer out for the first time last night. As you know, I've been trying to get in her panties for a long time. (Friend): Yeah, so did you make out? --this could also be interpreted as "Did you kiss each other/have a make-out session. Leasnam (talk) 00:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
But that's just because of the context. You can't say that the word "succeed" means to "to have sex", just because it can also be used in that context. --WikiTiki89 01:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • MWO has this as sense 2 a.[21]; vocabulary.com has a sense like this as well[22]. Some other dictionaries have senses involving necking. Making a deeper search for quotations could be worthwhile. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:01, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


I don't seem to be able to find attestation (WT:ATTEST) in durably archived attestation sources: google books:"paraskevodekatriaphobia", google groups:"paraskevodekatriaphobia", paraskevodekatriaphobia at OneLook Dictionary Search.

As a simple solution, paraskevodekatriaphobia should be moved back to paraskavedekatriaphobia, from which it was moved on 29 May 2014‎. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:16, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The only spelling I see in Google Books is paraskevidekatriophobia, which is based on Modern Greek, rather than Ancient Greek. Even that may very well be only mentions. Maybe it should be moved to Appendix:Unattested phobias. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
For paraskavedekatriaphobia, there are Citations:paraskavedekatriaphobia from permanently recorded media, albeit somewhat mentiony to me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:59, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
It has no bearing on the rfv, but this term is an etymological train wreck. In Ancient Greek, παρασκευή (paraskeuḗ) simply meant preparation, and was probably closer in pronunciation to "paraskewe". In Judaic contexts such as biblical translations it could refer to the day before the Sabbath, when observant Jews would prepare everything so they wouldn't have to work on the Sabbath itself. Since the Sabbath is on Saturday, that makes the term a very restricted synonym for Friday, but probably not a common one outside those contexts. The widespread adoption of Christianity and thus the change to being the general Greek word for Friday approximately coincided with two sound changes: υ between vowels became v, and η became i.
That means that "paraskeve" meaning "Friday" would require combining elements from different time periods, while "paraskevi" would mean using Modern Greek in a context which is normally strictly Ancient Greek. User:Pyprilescu tried to avoid the issue by moving to a compromise spelling, not considering that we go by usage rather than by etymological correctness. I suspect that whoever coined the term looked up Friday in a Modern Greek dictionary, and the "paraskeve" was an attempt to normalize the Modern Greek romanization, "paraskevi" to the way Ancient Greek is romanized in scientific terms.
At any rate, I think the best course of action is to treat this as an rfv of all the spellings of the term. If any of them passes (paying careful attention to the use/mention distinction), it should be moved to the most common spelling that passes and any other spellings that pass should become alternative spellings. If none of them pass, it should be moved to Appendix:Unattested phobias. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:52, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Is there even a (gentile) Ancient Greek word for Friday? Some calque of dies Veneris, perhaps, e.g. ἡμέρα τῆς Ἀφροδίτης? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Good point. I shouldn't have talked about commonness without knowing anything about how the ancient Greeks referred to the different days. If I had to guess, I'd say it would be some derivation from ἕκτος (héktos). I vaguely recall reading something about the custom of naming days after gods being a later borrowing from a foreign source. Chuck Entz (talk)
Pedantic point, but I think the days were named directly after the planets and thus only indirectly after the gods. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:53, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
True. After looking at the article on the w:Attic calendar and w:Roman calendar, it occurred to me that there may not have even been a widely-used system of 7-day weeks in Greece until the Romans instituted theirs in the early years of the Roman Empire. The earlier Roman nundinal week was based on an 8-day system, but I see nothing mentioned for Greece except the division of lunar months into thirds. I'm sure the Greeks were well aware of the 7-day systems of the Near East, but I wonder if anyone really used them. The lack of an accepted Ancient Greek name for Friday would certainly explain why a Modern Greek name was used. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)


Does not look attested in use: google books:"apikorosim", google groups:"apikorosim", apikorosim at OneLook Dictionary Search. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

It's a malformed (in spelling and definition) plural of apikoros, correct plural apikorsim. Choor monster (talk) 16:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Note that the incorrect plural (I wouldn't call it "malformed", since it is the regularly formed plural of a noun with a slightly irregular plural) is used occasionally in both Hebrew and English, but it is nevertheless still a plural of apikoros. --WikiTiki89 16:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)


Moved from RFD. It literally means the world's oldest profession, and reference to prostitution seems to be always an explanation rather than euphemism. I’m wondering whether there is a euphemistic usage without directly mentioning prostitution. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

My attempt:
  1. あなたの州のどこかでは世界最古の職業も合法なんでしょうけれど、自分のパティスリーを開くために体を売りたかったら、ここでもできるわ、ジョナス。
  2. ほう、一体あらたまって何のことかい」「その、っまり成人男子の観光客がだね、世界最古の職業に従事している現地女性とだね... ...」「何だ、そのことか... ...」と、ジャンは吹き出した。
@TAKASUGI Shinji: would you consider usages such as above euphemistic? Also, would translations from other languages count, such as the 2nd example? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:48, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
The sentences above don’t sound very natural, but I think it is attested. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (childish) Penis.

I created this from Wikisaurus:penis. Any attestation? google books:"dingy", google groups:"dingy", dingy at OneLook Dictionary Search. Also google books:"with your dingy", google groups:"with your dingy", with your dingy at OneLook Dictionary Search.

An informal extra-process question to the native speakers: from memory, do you recognize this word as meaning "penis"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't recognise it. There are thingy and dingus, however. Equinox 10:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I also do not recognise it, but I would know what its referring to if used in context, and it seems very plausible. It looks like a diminutive (or child-language form) of ding-dong, using the first element + -y. Though i dont withcall it per se, im sure i must have heard it over the years....somewhere...Leasnam (talk) 16:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
w:Ruth Wallis recorded a song called "Davy's Dinghy", which is full of double-entendres based on this sense, but it obviously doesn't attest the spelling. It's not easy verifying anything, because the adjective sense is very common, and because the boat is spelled in a variety of ways.
This sense is attested with the spelling dingie, which has less interference from the adjective and boat senses, but I was also finally able to find this and this, this and this.
The entry needs work, since there are two pronunciations, at least one more sense, and more etymologies:
Etymology 1
Pronounced as /ˈdɪn.dʒi/
Adjective: drab; shabby; dirty; squalid
Etymology 2: somehow related to dingbat
Pronounced as /ˈdɪŋi/
Adjective: ditzy, silly, a little crazy
Etymology 3: the y seems to be the diminutive suffix -y
Pronounced as /ˈdɪŋi/
Noun: penis
Etymology 4
Pronounced as /ˈdɪŋi/
Noun: Alternative spelling of dinghy
There's also the matter of dingie, which is attested as an alternative spelling and/or misspelling of most (probably all) of the senses of dingy. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


Wonderfool entry. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Hundreds from this year can be found like

[23] [24]. From 2012 we have this one. I haven't got the knowhow to put these quotes up --Type56op9 (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

These aren’t durably archived. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


Wonderfool entry. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: A portmanteau derived from "Tolkien Hollywood", used to describe the cinematographic presentation of the stories in J. R. R. Tolkien's Legendarium. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:34, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV of both senses in the English L2. I can't find any evidence of the cigarette sense, and nothing for the Haida sense that unambiguously uses it as a noun and not some sort of title. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

nước mắm[edit]

Supposedly English. Needs cites in this orthography. DCDuring TALK 10:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

It's easy finding English sentences using this spelling, but much harder deciding whether the term is being used as English or as Vietnamese. I'll see if I can come up with some good examples. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I view this as a kind of test case. I won't challenge other terms with similar orthography if this turns out to be attestable. If it is attestable, we should create the category of which it is currently the sole member. DCDuring TALK 15:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Would Hà Nội or Việt Nam (with Vietnamese diacritics) be attestable as English terms? In any case, we have examples of Romanian, Turkish, etc., etc, spellings used in English, Japanese macrons, e.g. Tōkyō are also common. It's hard to verify, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:57, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Two tests I’ve seen people using to determine whether the author considers the term a loanword instead of a foreign word are:
  1. the term is unitalicised;
  2. the inflected forms of the term use English desinences.
Number 2 is inapplicable in this case, since nước mắm is uncountable. As for unitalicised uses, I’ve only found this one. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


I'm sure there should be an Azeri sense with this spelling, but I am wildly skeptical of the idea that this could be an English spelling of the word.--Prosfilaes (talk) 12:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Alt forms are worth a look too. Apparently I created qepiq but I'm not finding much for that either. Equinox 13:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The English spelling is qapik or gapik (phonetic rendering), ultimately from Russian копе́йка (kopéjka). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:58, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. Per Anatoli, this one may be attested, but qapiks doesn't get any Google Books hits (in any language). - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. Per Anatoli, this one may be attested; gapiks does get one relevant Google Books hit. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


Explicitly adding the alt forms to the RFV. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV of the noun sense synonymous with blasphemy. I'm having trouble finding a single lemming at OneLook that lists a noun blaspheme or a non-scanno/typo usage of blaspheme as a noun at b.g.c. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

"Such blaspheme" finds a handful, but they all look like errors to me. Equinox 20:55, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • In Middle English blasfeme (blasphemy). See blaspheme in The Century Dictionary, The Century Co., New York, 1911 where it is a noun. DCDuring TALK 23:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
    • The Century Dictionary's noun (and adjective) entries list only Wyclif and Chaucer as authors, so maybe it should be moved to a Middle English section. If it can be found in Early Modern authors, then maybe it should be tagged "obsolete". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:28, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
      • The OED marks this sense as obsolete, with the latest cite from 1583 (Poems of T Watson). It looks more like Middle English to me. Dbfirs 08:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
        • If it's from 1583, that's well into Early Modern English.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Yes, agreed. I wasn't convinced that Thomas Watson was using Chancery Standard because he also wrote in Latin and studied law, but he was educated at Oxford, so he would be using Early Modern. There's another cite from W. Bonde Pylgrimage of Perfection in 1526, so I think you are correct that the word survived into Early Modern English. We should mark it as obsolete. Dbfirs 09:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 05:51, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Cannot find examples in books.google.com, pinging original author User:Type56op9. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:20, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if it could be attested to mean one who necks a drink. I doubt it, I'm just musing. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


One of those dictionary-only words, I suspect. I found one very dubious running-text citation in a book attempting to use as many unusual words as possible, but otherwise I can't see any evidence. Ƿidsiþ 08:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


Ungoliant (falai) 17:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


Seems reasonable - but, just to be sure that it is not a protologism. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Klebsiella pneumoniae carbapenemase[edit]

  • Rfv-sense: (pathology) a superbug strain of Klebsiella pneumoniae bacteria that produces carbapenemase
  • Rfv-sense: (biochemistry) a carbapenemase enzyme produced by Klebsiella pneumoniae bacteria

The term exists; the question is which of the two senses is attested per WT:ATTEST. I propose you place the attesting quotations at Citations:Klebsiella pneumoniae carbapenemase, since if the 1st sense is not attested, the 2nd can be later deleted as sum of parts via RFD. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

It seems that the biochemistry sense is used in w:Carbapenemase. It seems to include at least four types, which types may be subject to further division. IOW, the term reflects our current state of knowledge, but may not refer to a specific chemical whose composition and structure is well-established. As such I don't know in what sense it will really seem to be a term as more is understood. Perhaps users view it as SoP now. DCDuring TALK 13:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
From reading abstracts it appears that there is a gene which spreads among bacteria that enables them to create the K. pneumoniae carbapenase, so the notion that there is a strain the identity of which is stable enough to warrant treatment as a taxon seems unlikely. For example, {{w:NCBI}} does not have a taxon called Klebsiella pneumoniae carbapenemase.
I feel that this is beyond my access to the scientific literature and probably my paygrade. If we do not have and cannot recruit a contributor with better access and knowledge, I would rather we deleted the pathology sense. The biochem sense would provide an interested user with a term to be used in further research. The pathology sense looks like it leads up a blind alley. DCDuring TALK 13:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
OTOH, this may be an important gateway to the phenomenon or rapidly spreading drug-resistance among pathogens that we would be remiss to neglect. DCDuring TALK 13:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
That's all very nice (or not, depending on one's taste), but I really request attesting quotations; these absent, I request that this be ultimately deleted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:48, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I know you are only interested in formal procedure, so I apologize for boring you. I don't know how to cite this properly in this case. I'd appreciate someone else trying or offering constructive advice or support. DCDuring TALK 17:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
RFV is not "formal procedure" in any pejorative sense; it is a process used to discover whether, as far as we know, a term or sense is attested. The material requested via RFV are usually attesting quotations, or at least links to them. You know that by now, having spent multiple years around here, so I not sure what to make of your above responses. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but not listed by 123snake45 (talkcontribs), with the comment:"There is no that word at Turkish. It has been prefabricated! It isn't Turkish." A couple of cites have just been added to the citations page for the entry, so it looks like a good time to assess those cites and see if there are any others.

The definition in the entry is "beach".

This fits the profile of the type of terms that our anonymous Turkish protologism purveyor targets: the word for beach one finds in dictionaries is plaj, which is an obvious borrowing of French plage- they specialize in trying to substitute terms manufactured from items in various Turkic languages for common Turkish words whose etymology isn't Turkish enough for their taste. The dictionary app on my computer has a verb çimmek (to bathe (in a creek, stream, etc.)), which could be the source for this, along with -er and -lik. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

There are at least two citations from Google Books, so stop saying gibberish words and shut up. —This unsigned comment was added at 2001:a98:c060:80:7948:8701:2669:dbc5.
Your theory is wrong. There is already another word 'kumsal' for a beach as a Turkish origin word. -- 06:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
In what way does that invalid his (Chuck Entz's) theory? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
I was aware of that, though it literally means sandy. As for the previous comment: the issue isn't whether it's gibberish, but whether it's really Turkish. If someone were to try to translate beach into Turkish as çimerlik, there's a real possibility that they would either, at best, come across as not knowing Turkish very well, or, at worst, simply not be understood. A language consists of what people actually speak or have spoken in the past, not what someone thinks might be a good idea. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Kumlu literally means sandy. The definition of kumsal is 2. Denize, göle vb. yerlere girilebilen genellikle kumluk alan, deniz hamamı, kumbaşı, plaj according to the TDK's (Turkish Language Association's) Up-to-date Turkish Dictionary. -- 10:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Just my two cents. If a word, used in the given language, is attested, for CFI purposes, it's possible to include a word, which is quite rare and native speakers are not very familiar with it. It can be qualified as rare. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
You can look at http://tdk.gov.tr/index.php?option=com_bts&arama=kelime&guid=TDK.GTS.540b8776ea62b5.08911904

plaj, kumsal, kıyı, sahil words are exist but there is no çimerlik. Because çimerlik is Azeri word. So originally is Azeri. Lie of "çimerlik=Turkish" is same personal who prefabricate words of "sınalgı, birdem, özçekmiş, haydavcı, yöndemci, köpyak, düşerge, eğleç, türküm, karabat, yağday, emes, öndürücü, haydamak, birak, dikuçar, beket..." e.t.c --123snake45 (talk) 22:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The rules we use are WT:CFI. RFV basically requires someone to cite a word for it not to be deleted. If someone is not offering cites, then there's basically no point in arguing against a word. If there is someone providing cites, then it's irrelevant what any other site says; the question becomes, among other things, if the cite is from an appropriate source and if the word is really used in the text. Words that are actually used will be kept, even if strongly disapproved of by whatever authorities there may be, though a note to that effect is appropriate.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
123snake45 is behaving like this because he fabricated many words and those words were not accepted. After this he tries to delete other words that he sees on the forums which people discuss with him because of his absurd words. If you think that pan-Turkists or language purists use this kind of words it is irrevelant with if the citations are valid or not. A word can be used by the nationalists or the communists etc. A dictionary represents a word if that word really exists. I have just added the translations of the citations from Google Books so decide yourselves if they are valid or not. -- 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
The citations look valid, so: RFV-passed. It gets no hits in this Turkish corpus, though, whereas plaj does get hits, so I've marked it as rare and added a synonyms section containing a link to plaj. - -sche (discuss) 21:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Comment about the citations: There were 6 citations:
  • I couldn't find one of them, the one of 1990: if anyone can post a link to the page scan, I'll take a look at that too.
  • The 2013 citation [25] is not at Google Books, but it is the website of a journal that's also printed; it shows the contents of that journal, so I'm going to assume that that's ok for CFI purposes.
  • The 1958 citation is on a non-durably archived website, here [26], but a certain someone (gee, who would that be? ;-) ) has copied that and posted it to Google Books. (!) Copying a forumpost and putting that on Google Books still makes it a forumpost; it's not a printed work as described in CFI.
  • The 1978 one is a mention (language purification guide of the Turkish Language Association).
  • The 2007 one has a different meaning. -- Curious (talk) 21:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand about the 1958 citation. Do you mean Google Groups? In any case, there is nothing about the form of any work in CFI; it's about whether it's durably archived. Forum posts, like personal letters and diaries, are perfectly eligible if they are durably archived (like the use of the diary of Samuel Pepys on camlet and cittern).--Prosfilaes (talk) 13:58, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I think they meant Google Books. The mere fact of appearing on Google Books or Google Groups doesn't make something durably archived. We accept Google Books cites because we presume that they're just digital copies ofprinted works that are also durably archived elsewhere. We accept Usenet cites from Google Groups, not because they're on Google Groups, but because they're on Usenet, which is copied all over the place and impossible to really delete. If non-durably-archived material can be submitted to Google Books, its occurrence on Google Books doesn't, by itself, make it durably-archived- a copyright owner can have it removed. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not seeing anything on Google Books. Looking and thinking about it again, it makes no sense; how can a 1958 citation be a forum post?!? That page seems to have the entire (almost certainly illegal) copy of a book Yılanların Öcü by Fakir Baykurt, which is indeed on Google Books in several editions, though I can't get Google Books to bring up anything that looks like that citation. Yılanların Öcü is durably archived; Worldcat lists 45 libraries as holding copies, and I'm guess there would be a lot more if Turkish libraries were regularly listed by Worldcat (no Turkish libraries are in that 45). The question is if the cite accurately quotes the book and uses the word in that sense, not whether it's durably archived.
It's easy to post a message on Usenet, and that satisfies CFI. It's conceivably and easily abusable, and obviates worrying about people adding non-durably-archived stuff to Google Books to generate a cite for Wiktionary.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:25, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


Stupid or foolish person. Plausible, but I searched for "you bollard!" etc. and found virtually nothing. Equinox 03:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

RFV failed. Equinox 23:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Old English ? Leasnam (talk) 18:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

The same contributor (Top Cat 14) also created leag, which is equally dubious (the g appears in inflected forms of leah, not the lemma).There's no evidence they knew any Old English at all. The y would have to have the same sound as modern y in order to be a variant of Old English g, but I have my doubts that y was used as a consonant/semivowel at all in Old English, and as a vowel it was only the umlated u, as far as I know.
Searching Google Books with Þe and ðe used to narrow it down to Old English texts just turns up scannos and the Middle English counterpart of lye, law and lay- not conclusive but strongly suggestive that this is wrong. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


Is mel really English? —Stephen (Talk) 20:36, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I suspect not. It occurs in some fixed Latin phrases (mel boraeis, mel rosae, mel roset, mel rosat...) and derivatives (melrose, oxymel, hydromel, oenomel...), but AFAIK not alone. Equinox 02:01, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Maybe in ingredients lists where they have "aqua" for water. I dont know if that's meant to make it easier for non-English speakers to understand or if it's some legal thing that it's not healthy enough if it doesn't give the chemical formula of water. Soap (talk) 22:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but not listed. This is an example how 123snake45 says "This isn't Turkish! It is prefabricated!" without any prior research. If he looked up Turkish Language Association's Up-to-date Turkish Dictionary, he could probably see this word there. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 07:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I did look today and it isn't writing at mean "to drive". So it isn't "drive" it is "dehlemek". "Haydamak" comes from "hayda" and "hayda" is mean "haydi". So, it uses for get move the animal(s); a kind of hurry up. --123snake45 (talk) 08:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
You said it was prefabricated. Anyway, there are citations, so i will not argue with you. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 08:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I said it was prefabricated for "drive".
You said it without any prior research. Because you only want to spread the words which you fabricated. If you don't know a word, you think that word was fabricated by another one and you can not stand this. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 09:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
You are still telling lie. Not me, you did entry your prefabricated words "birdem, sınalgı, haydavcı, öndürücü, köpyak, türküm, özçekmiş ..." e.t.c. --123snake45 (talk) 10:08, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
The words "sınalgı, haydavcı, türküm" etc. are not prefabricated words. They are loan words from other Turkic languages. You can not stand these words because this kind of words prevent you to spread your own fabricated words. Öndürücü is some people's surname in Turkey, and you may find all these words in other dictionaries. Anyway, there are citations from Google Books so stop saying irrelevant things here. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 11:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
We need another Turkish speaker to sort this out. Assuming the citations at Citations:haydamak are valid (as they appear to be) we need someone to tell us what they mean. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Unquestionably, the etymon of the Ukr. hajdamaka is Tkc. haydamak ‘treiben’; as it displays the initial h-, it was visibly the Ott. form. Morphologically the word is a suffixed form: hayda- + -mak (a suffix building in Turkish a grammatical category similar to the Indo-European infinitive form) ‘to drive, drive away; driving, driving away’. The verb (h)ayda- seems to be a derivative from the onomatopoeic stem hayda ‘come on! (to spur someone on)’. Thus the original meaning of haydamak was ‘to shout hayda’ and developed into ‘to shout hayda driving someone / something away’. In Ott. or CTat., however, this verb could have gained another meaning of ‘to shout hayda while chasing after / pursuing someone or something’ and finally ‘to chase, to pursue’. (Michał Németh, Remarks on the etymology of Hung. hajdú ‘herdsman’ and Tkc. haydamak ‘brigand’ , STUDIA TURCOLOGICA CRACOVIENSIA, · 10 (2005). (This source is available on Google Books) --2001:A98:C060:80:E40C:3A70:A48A:99C2 12:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Passes RFV, AFAICT. - -sche (discuss) 21:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


This was copied straight from the 1913 Webster's, which AFAICT was copied straight from the 1828 Webster's, which probably got it from this 1742 text, but I can't find any indication that there is any New World snake called the "bom", and, well, zoological knowledge has advanced a little bit in the past 272 years. So far, it looks like this word has only been mentioned and not used. If such a critter ever existed, it presumably has some modern name, but if we can't find out which one, we can't even label this an obsolete word for something else. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Webster's Second International c. 1935, shows it in a footnote, saying it is the same as aboma. DCDuring TALK 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I found bom and boma in this sense in some Portuguese dictionaries.
bom in The Century Dictionary, The Century Co., New York, 1911 also says it is the same as aboma.DCDuring TALK 23:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
"Zoological knowledge has advanced a little bit in the past 272 years." I loled. I am also enjoying the idea of any snake being named after the sound it makes, because then all snakes should be called sssss or hsssss or sssshh or Slytherin. What kind of stupid snake says "bom"? Beautiful ecologist Kirsty told me that she used to hiss at people who bothered her, although I imagined it being more of a catlike hiss. BTW, one thing that Webster 1913 brought to my attention is that there was some point, not too long ago, when everyone stopped saying "serpent" and started saying "snake". Anyway here is a promising search for anyone who is currently more sober and less distracted: [27] Love always Equinox 23:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Dubstep snake, I suppose. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I looked through the first ten pages of that search, and all I found was hyphenation artifacts, scannos (mostly for born and boæ), and one mention. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Could it be somehow a mistake for boa? Boa is the feminine form of the word bom in Portuguese, although the word "boa" for snake apparently goes back to Latin and ins unrelated. Soap (talk) 05:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
It is more likely that the English dictionary entries are intended to potentially help someone who might read a rendering of a word heard in Brazil that was or was derived from aboma: *bom, *boma, *bomma. I doubt that any of them are attestable in English. DCDuring TALK 11:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I found and added two book citations, but both are mentions. Inadequate! Equinox 15:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree that "This is called the bom, ..." (now in mainspace) is a mention, not a use. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I managed to find this:
I'd hazard a guess that McGreal just trawled through a dictionary for words to plug into his poem (rather than that he was using a word he was familiar with), but it still looks like a use. (It seems possible to discount the capitalization because it can be shown that he capitalizes nouns generally.) - -sche (discuss) 01:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Century says this was also spelt boma and bomma, in addition to the spelling already mentioned above (aboma). I can only find mentions of those terms, and instances where they occur in italics along with other non-English terms, however; I can't find English uses of them in reference to snakes. (This means that the aboma sense of boma may need to be RFVed.) - -sche (discuss) 01:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

cœnæsthesiæ, obœdience, obœdient, onomatopœiæ[edit]

Way too rare to merit entries. --Æ&Œ (talk) 11:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

On a side note, I kind of like how you can see ‘onomatopceiae’ in this text, but searching for it in Google Books reveals three unrelated books. Just further proof that Google sucks fucking balls. --Æ&Œ (talk) 11:58, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


The uses are misscans of præmunitory, and the few valid ones are only mentions. --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:16, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Speedied: this will be an artifact of automatic ligature-to-letter-pair conversion in the Webster software I wrote. Usually both forms exist; this is the rare one where they apparently don't. Equinox 22:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


I could only find one use, and it’s actually for prænaris. --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


More rare crap that I added. --Æ&Œ (talk) 10:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course we don't exclude rare terms unless they're too rare (unattestable). Renard Migrant (talk) 11:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Goupil, we only include terms if they have three uses in Google Books or Google Groups. Ѯ&Π(talk) 12:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Not quite. We only include terms if they have three uses in durably archived sources. There must be millions of books, magazines, and newspapers in existence that aren't in Boogle Gooks yet, it's just a pain going through them all to look for specific words and spellings. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


The transcription of the text says ‘presidency,’ not præsidency like it actually says. —Æ&Œ (talk) 12:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)





Rfv-sense: genus of herbaceous plants. --Shouldn't the name of a genus be capitalized? --Hekaheka (talk) 22:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Quite often the lower-cased version is used as a countable noun (fuchsia(s), pelargonium(s), etc.) but yes, in this case I think it's a mistake. Equinox 22:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
People often use the lower-case English form as if it were a genus name, but it seems silly to have definitions both as an individual specimen and as the genus. Moreover, it could refer to one or more of the subgeneric groupings (eg, subgenus, section, species, subspecies, variety, form). People also sometimes use the italicized taxonomic name (eg, Digitalis) to refer to an individual specimen, rather than to the species or genus. If some would like to insert and attest these, they can, but it won't help users much. I suppose such phenomena belong in Wiktionary:Taxonomic names. DCDuring TALK 01:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I just came across another entry illustrating non-rule-following use of such terms: [[Homines neanderthalenses]]. DCDuring TALK 01:41, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I hope I'm not the only person in the world who uses the plural [[Tyrannosauri reges]]. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
@Angr: As professional systematicists would have it, Tyrannosaurus rex is a proper name of an individual, the individual being the group of individual specimens of common lineage that can mate. I offer this not as definitive, but to point out that a taxon is something like a Roman gens or the House of Windsor. One would not refer to Prince William as one of the HouseS of Windsor! Phylogeneticists refer to clades, which are lineages, which also have proper names, but are not defined in the same way as the classical taxa.
But you are certainly not alone in not respecting the niceties of taxonomyspeak. I think most zoologists and botanists don't either unless they are being very careful. DCDuring TALK 21:53, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
However, Tyrannosaurus rex is not only a taxonomic name; it's also the vernacular name, as shown by the fact that our entry has an English section in addition to the Translingual section. And as the vernacular name it's a common noun for any individual of the species, like frilled lizard or least weasel. And as such, it needs a plural, which I suppose is actually Tyrannosaurus rexes most of the time, but I still prefer the more Latinate form. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:03, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Sure, but we all have polymathic intellectual pretensions that we need to indulge, as I tried to. I happen to enjoy the peculiar intersection of linguistics, taxonomy (classical and phylogenetic), and (ordinary language) philosophy. DCDuring TALK 23:07, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Cited. I propose that we change the definition to something like “Any plant of the genus Digitalis [] ”, because genus names themselves are listed as translingual. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
The cites support the new sense Ungoliant proposes, not the challenged 'genus' sense. I suspect that cites might be available for the 'genus' sense as well. I am reluctant to actually seek out such cites, because I don't believe that we add value to more than a tiny number of users by laboriously adding to every English name of a natural kind, descent group, or any other grouping of living things the extra senses, let alone citing them in each case. DCDuring TALK 17:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)


No Google Books hits; no Google web hits in English (other than as someone's online user name). This, that and the other (talk) 07:45, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

RFV-failed, deleted. - -sche (discuss) 23:25, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


That word is lie of a group. --123snake45 (talk) 08:22, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Watch your mouth, we know about your lies. It is zir ü zeber in Ottoman Turkish. This may be a changed form of that word (see Hungarian zűrzavar) but since there is no citations from Google Books this word may be deleted. --2001:A98:C060:80:9C10:38EF:8648:DCCF 09:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


This isn't Turkish! --123snake45 (talk) 13:16, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

salad tossing[edit]

Is this attested to mean anilingus? I find mentions in Google books, but don't know how to find uses. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Uses of the phrase "tossed his salad" are easy enough to find on b.g.c; is that close enough? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
That would be the verb toss salad or toss someone's salad, IMHO. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Here are three uses of "salad tossing" as a noun: [28], [29], [30]. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:07, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

spider's legs[edit]

Can this be attested to mean "pubic hair"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:45, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English has an entry - "noun. the pubic hair that can be seen outside the confines of a girl's bikini or underwear" UK - citing Chris E. Lewis The Dictionary of Playground Slang, 2003. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 16:13, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
That's not what counts as a citation for WT:ATTEST, though it does obviously suggest that the term is real. Those are two mentions, not uses. DCDuring TALK 18:45, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
@Gordonofcartoon:, while I don't doubt it, it doesn't answer Dan Polansky's question in any way. Renard Migrant (talk) 19:34, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


"(humorous, slang) a very long SMS message" Was at WT:RFD#SMSA. DCDuring TALK 19:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

chicken liver[edit]

Any quotations attesting this to mean coward? Was in Wikisaurus, present in at least one online thesaurus for "coward". --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but offhand sounds quite dated. Evokes a sort of 'Classic Westerns' kinda feel, like something you'd hear in old movies made in the 1960's (but set in the 1860-1890's), or Gunsmoke. Leasnam (talk) 18:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Aside from hearing it said by other children in the US in the 60s, there's this, this, and this. There's also this and this, but they're hyphenated. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
It seems like a childish blend of chicken and lily-livered, influenced by literal chicken liver. DCDuring TALK 22:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


This has one quotation, but the quotation is not actually in English, so it doesn't attest this term for English. It also failed RFV before. —CodeCat 19:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It even uses the same quote that Ruakh said in the course of the rvf was probably Middle Scots. I'm sure it's a case of forgetting that what the OED considers Scottish dialects, we consider the Scots language. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:50, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Middle Scots doesn't have a code. Should we make one for it? Category:Middle Scots is a subcat of Category:Regional Scots, which seems wrong. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Probably. - -sche (discuss) 21:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)


A Luciferwildcat entry tagged for speedy deletion by User:Peter Bowman as not existing in the Spanish language. I haven't had time this morning to check thoroughly, so I brought it here. Given LW's track record, I won't be surprised if this fails. Also included:

Chuck Entz (talk) 13:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the gramatically correct form would be atravesamiento (first conjugation ending -ar + suffix -miento = -amiento). Although not noted in the RAE dictionary, there are some hits in CORPES and CREA and the term (spelled with an a) seems to be used in Latin America. Peter Bowman (talk) 16:07, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Yeah they're spelling mistakes; move to 'a' forms (atravesamiento) and kill the redirects. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


Tagged for speedy deletion by User:Peter Bowman, so I brought it here, just to be fair. This one looks like it's attested, but it would be useful to know whether it's a misspelling or an alternative form (the authoritative RAE dictionary online only recognizes cervecería). Chuck Entz (talk) 14:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems to be real but obsolete. Perhaps archaic would be a better tag because it seems to appear in at least one place name (hence the hits in running English texts). Renard Migrant (talk) 01:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


Anarchist and socialist? Seems contradictory. WikiWinters (talk) 00:31, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

It would probably help to have two more clearly distinct senses of socialism. There is the Marxist sense, which is The Government Owns Everything For Your Own Good, Comrade, which is the source of the American political boo-word ("Obamacare is creeping socialism!!")
The other is the softer understanding of a general ethos of helping your neighbours and them helping you: working for a generally social benefit. So a capital-S Socialist Anarchist is a contradiction in terms: someone who wants to pull down government in order to ... build an overarching all-controlling government. The soft sense, on the other hand, is someone who wants to bring down government in the expectation that people will naturally work together for communal benefit without a government getting in the way. (This tends to go with a belief that government tends to be captured by oligarchy sooner or later, so that corporate-controlled government is actively working against the common good as seen from street-level). As opposed to the "every man for themselves" anarchist; such as the Randian, for whom everyone should be selfish and greedy and unrestrained by the needs of those around them, and that this is a good thing; or the caricature anarchist who just wants to watch stuff burn.
--Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
There is such a thing as left-libertarianism. bd2412 T 03:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Indeed: libertarian (= seeking individual liberty) does not necessarily mean Libertarian (= Ayn Rand was right about everything). --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 04:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Good Hell, I hope that you are trolling. If not, then I am sad to say that you people are bloody ignorant. Socialists, communists, and anarchists (which I consider synonymous) seek the elimination of the state, not the strengthening of it. Look it up. Most anarchists therefore consider ‘anarcho‐socialism’ a pleonasm, in contrast to anarcho-capitalism, which is definitely oxymoronic because capitalism requires the state so that capitalism can sustain itself. The concept of ‘state‐socialism’ was a nonsense concept fabricated by Vladimir Lenin to attract the workers to his movement, and Leninism and its successor ideologies have very little to do with Marxism. Most people have no clue what socialism, communism, or anarchism are. Influential people obfuscated the concept because it could be very dangerous to their power. --Romanophile (talk) 04:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm glad you are so firmly convinced that Socialism as exemplified in the USSR doesn't mean what the Soviets thought it meant. (Or that it can't hold two, even potentially contradictory, meanings depending on context.) And that Socialism means exactly the same thing as Communism... in all possible contexts, I assume? Also that Anarchism means only what you think it means, and that there are not such things as anarchists who desire the loss of government so that they can as individuals do and take whatever they want, or people who may be unclear on the inherent contradictions between capitalism per se and anarchism per se, but still identify as "anarcho-capitalists". Are there any other political terms you think everyone except you gets wrong? --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 04:31, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
The point is, anarcho‐socialism is not oxymoronic, and your idea of ‘Marxist socialism’ is obviously tosh. Even if you think that it’s still a valid meaning, it can’t possibly be the only meaning. Also ‘…everyone except you…’, that’s wrong, too. [31] --Romanophile (talk) 05:06, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I never said it was the only meaning. It would seem to be you having the problem with the concept of polysemy. The World Socialist Movement doesn't get to define what the word is and isn't allowed to mean either. (I am sympathetic to socialism myself, but the "About Us" page of the World Socialism Movement has as much of a monopoly on the word "socialism" as does the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. That is: none.) --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 05:14, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
  • The sense of "libertarian" nominated for RFV is "An anarchist, typically with socialist implications." Please let us have attesting quotations, and, they absent, let us eventually fail this RFV. I am suspicious of the sense, since dictionaries don't have it. google books:"libertarian", google groups:"libertarian", libertarian at OneLook Dictionary Search. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
    I've added a couple which clearly put libertarians, anarchists and socialists into the same semiotic pot, and a couple more which I'll add here rather than there, because they are not the noun, but used adjectivally:
    • 2011 Carissa Honeywell, A British Anarchist Tradition: Herbert Read, Alex Comfort and Colin Ward, p. 146
      He highlighted libertarian traditions of socialism and linked them to anarchism in the British context.
    • 2012 David Goodway, Anarchist Seeds Beneath the Snow: Left-Libertarian Thought and British Writers from William Morris to Colin Ward p.15
      The Labour Emancipation League had been founded in the East End in 1882 and, while never calling itself anarchist, was always libertarian socialist and became anti-parliamentarian, as expressed in Joseph Lane's notable An Anti-Statist, Communist Manifesto of 1887.
    --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 04:10, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
  • The three quotations present in the entry do not attested the sense, IMHO. I mean 1973 Eugene Lunn, 2009 Peter Marshall and 2012 Wilbur R. Miller. Consider the third one: "While anarchism and socialist libertarians have a rich history of revolutionary thinkers ...": how do you infer that "anarchism" and "socialist libertarians" are terms intended to mean the same in the sentence? --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
    Obviously, I think they rather do. They are all used in the context of Anarchist/Socialist theory, and are contrasting specific subtypes of that ideology. The last reference, the one you quote, is also contrasting socialist libertarians against right-libertarians. The preceding sentence reads "Socialist libertarianism sounds like anarchy, and for good reason; in fact anarchists began using the term libertarian in the mid-1800s, far before the right-wing usage in the United States that began in the 1950s."[32] Maybe that would have been a better quote? But it explicitly draws out socialism, anarchism, and libertarianism as different strands of the same basic ideology. The 2009 quote also explicitly contrasts socialist libertarianism against authoritarian socialism, which contrast Seth seemed to have such difficulty with in the conversation above. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 20:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
    Also: "how do you infer that "anarchism" and "socialist libertarians" are terms intended to mean the same in the sentence?"
    Semantics. If they were different movements, it would say that "... anarchism and socialist libertarians have rich histories ...". As it gives the two terms a singular history of revolutionary thinkers, it follows that they are different aspects of the same thing, QED. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
    What about this: "The Asian civilizations of India, China, Korea, and Japan each have a rich history of design development extending back for thousands of years", boldface mine. Looks like a refutation of your argument to me. To find more sentences like that, check google books:"have a rich history". --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:25, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
    You yourself bolded the difference. Each: "The phrase beginning with each identifies a set of items wherein the words following each identify the individual elements by their shared characteristics. The phrase is grammatically singular in number, so if the phrase is the subject of a sentence, its verb is conjugated into a third-person singular form."
    With the "each" the singular subject "a rich history" applies to each individual civilisation of India, China, Korea and Japan. Without it, "The Asian civilizations of India, China, Korea, and Japan have a rich history" implies a singular shared history between them as a group. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 22:44, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
    You must be kidding me by now. There is "Shreveport and Bossier City have a rich history [...]"; find other quotations at google books:"have a rich history". Your argument, which by the way was syntactic rather than semantic, is flawed. In general, a phrase of the form "X and Y have a rich history" does not suggest X and Y to be synonyms. As for "have rich histories", few people write that even when the subject is plural: have a rich history, have rich histories at Google Ngram Viewer. When the subject is singular, it is google books:"has a rich history", with "has" rather than "have". --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
    Oh for Deity's sake: the references are giving the history of anarchists and socialists and calling them libertarians, and somehow you can't extract any meaning from that? Do you think that someone is talking about A and B having a history of C because there isn't a semantic connection between them? If that is the case, please describe the sort of source and/or wording which could possibly convince you.
    Moreover, that more people fail to observe the singular verb with multiple subjects and 'each' doesn't stop it working in that way. Arguably the bit about verb conjugation in the Usage Notes of "each" is not accurate, certainly not for "has". I still maintain that "A and B have a rich history" implies a shared history between them; where the technically correct "A and B each has a rich history" and the more common in use "A and B each have a rich history" both imply separate and distinct histories. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 12:37, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


The second etymology, "excrescence on the trunk of a tree usually covering a knot", has just been added by an anon. All I could find in a cursory search is bole (with an e) as another word for tree trunk. Since the IP also added a Maori translation, maybe this sense of bol is specific to New Zealand? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm think anon meant burl, which could easily be pronounced "bol", and may have such a pronunciation-derived spelling somewhere, though I haven't found it yet. DCDuring TALK 13:51, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

female penis[edit]

This failed RFV before; now there are quotations in the entry, which I have copied to Citations:female penis. The quotations are inadequate, IMHO. First, the quotation "The correct anatomical term to describe [...] is the female penis." is a mention; any quotation of the form "The correct term for X is Y" is a mention of Y, while it is use of X. The second quotation actually uses the term "miniature female penis" to refer to clitoris, not "female penis"; it becomes apparent if you try to substitude, and get "miniature clitoris", which was not intended; in any case, it is a one-off metaphor and not the use of the term "female penis" to refer to clitoris before clitoris was introduced to the context. As for the third quotation, substitution again clarifies what is going on: In "The female penis is something that physically disrupts the idea that men and women have sex because they were built to fit together", this is really an abbreviation of The [idea of clitoris being a] female penis ..."; substitution yields nonsense: "The clitoris is something that physically disrupts the idea that men and women have sex because they were built to fit together". I motion to speedy delete as unattested term that failed RFV before until the author adds acceptable quotations to Citations:female penis. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I have added two more cites; not sure how acceptable they are but they do allude to the clitoris. Zeggazo (talk) 08:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • As for "I stroked each side of her labia majora [...] before homing back on what had, by now, swollen to become her female penis with it's familiar Germanic helmet—albeit in miniature—which I now rolled around between my thumb and fore-finger": That is a one-off metaphor not using "female penis" to refer to clitoris; the sentence indicates that only after it has swollen has the clitoris become "her female penis", immediately continuing the metaphor with "familiar Germanic helmet", which does not attest "Germanic helmet" to refer to a part of clitoris. Also notice the word "become"; if "female penis" would mean clitoris, the sentence would suggest that clitoris has become clitoris, a nonsense. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:48, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

house warming[edit]

Rfv-sense: The act of welcoming a person/family to their newly purchased or newly rented home.

Not found in Onelook. The only support which I could find for this sense is this comment in the Wikipedia article for Housewarming party: "In some communities, neighbors may bring the housewarming party to the new residents to welcome them." --Hekaheka (talk) 22:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The with-space spelling is certainly less common. housewarming at OneLook Dictionary Search and house-warming at OneLook Dictionary Search find just few lemmings. This is certainly attestable. DCDuring TALK 23:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
COCA has 84 instances of housewarming, 11 of house-warming, 5 of house warming. All three spellings are used as nominals and attributively. DCDuring TALK 23:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm not doubting the spelling, but the sense. The first sense is "party to celebrate moving into a new home", which I think is the usual one. --Hekaheka (talk) 00:52, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I'd not be surprised that it existed. I take it that any of the three spelling could provide the attestation, not just the least common one, which we call the lemma for some reason. DCDuring TALK 01:21, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I think I understand the problem with the entry. We should not have an adjective section, as the term does not meet tests for adjectivity such as comparability/gradability or predicate use, nor does it have any distinct meaning when used attributively. The challenged noun sense is the original sense of housewarming, usually used attributively and usually uncountable when a nominal. This is the sense used in housewarming party and housewarming gift. The "party" sense is a countable sense derived from the first, when housewarming came to take formal shape as a party.
If my view is correct, the adjective section should be RfVed to confirm that it does not meet the tests and the challenged sense should have a label (usually used attributively) and should appear before the "party sense". DCDuring TALK 01:52, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Or not. A "feast/merrymaking" sense goes back at least to Samuel Johnson. So housewarming party is a pleonasm. The adjective sense should still be RfVed IMO. DCDuring TALK 02:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Etymonline says 1570. It looks to me like that's the original sense, which was extended metaphorically to mean a welcome, and the metaphorical sense is what's used attributively. The question is where along the way (if anywhere) has there been a split into separate senses or words? Chuck Entz (talk) 02:44, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Can one now have a housewarming without a party, a feast, or merry-making? I think so. Certainly one can give a housewarming gift without there being festivities. That Cambridge has housewarming (party) as an entry, even though it should be a pleonasm, suggests to me that housewarming has the challenged sense. Oxford has a definition "A party celebrating a move to a new home" and gives as examples sentences with "housewarming party", ie, its definition is not substitutable into the very usage examples it provides. DCDuring TALK 03:32, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I think this noun sense is essentially the same as the first noun sense, where party should be interpreted broadly to include small social gatherings. Adjective should get terminated with extreme prejudice. Make housewarming the main form per DCDuring. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:24, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


There are purported cites in the entry, but each needs to be reviewed to determine whether it is "durably archived" and to be formatted to allow for broad participation in any decisions about whether this merits "hot word" status before it would otherwise be included (after a year has passed), assuming the validity of the cites. DCDuring TALK 13:22, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

  • I've formatted the citations from print journals. All are from articles reporting on the same piece of research. While I'd say we should keep this for now, the important part in a year will be seeing if other research groups use the word in scientific papers (or if the characters in CSI start profiling victim's thanatomicrobiomes...) Smurrayinchester (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
    Are you sure that they are in print editions? In the past, I've assumed that online content provided by a title that was also in print was in print/durably archived. I no longer think such an assumption is justified, but I don't know how to make a determination one way or the other. DCDuring TALK 06:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
    The journal citation: definitely. The New Scientist citation: definitely (it says "This article appeared in print" at the bottom. The Forensics Magazine citation: almost definitely (it's tagged with a reference to the issue it appeared in). In general though, I don't think having an even more restrictive criterion for web citations is really going to improve the quality or reliability of Wiktionary, since we're just going to lose whole swathes of high-quality sources of citations for relatively little gain. If nothing else, it's fair to assume that any reasonably well-trafficked website will be put in the Internet Archive and copied by a hundred spam mirrors. Smurrayinchester (talk) 07:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
    That's a matter for WT:BP and even a VOTE. It might be time to revisit the question. DCDuring TALK 12:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh come on, we've never made any effort to define 'durably archived'. It wouldn't be revisiting the issue of what durably archived means, it would be a start on the matter. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
@Renard Migrant: We have what is more useful than a verbal definition: an operational one: We accept as sources any print work that would be found in a library, any print journal or newspaper, any Usenet group. Folks have made arguments for other things but haven't convinced very many people. DCDuring TALK 18:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello... does this work? . I am the author of the word "thanatomicrobiome". I created the original web page... however someone keeps changing it... Can we please leave the references as is...?

The other person keeps adding news paper articles... does the rag newspaper "Montgomery Advertiser" count as a real publication? I do not think so.. but I have NOT deleted it. Can we please discuss? panoble@washington.edu Thanks Peter

Here they are:


  • [33] Peter A. Noble, A NSF proposal I wrote: "Life after death: The role and composition of the thanatomicrobiome in the decomposition of mammalian organs", October, 2013.
  • [34] Can, I., G.T. Javan, A.E. Pozhitkov and P.A. Noble. Distinctive thanatomicrobiome signatures found in the blood and internal organs of humans. Journal of Microbiological Methods 2014 106: 1-7.
  • [35], Peter A. Noble, Introducing the Thanatomicrobiome, MicrobialWorld August 15, 2014
  • [36] Anna Williams, Death: the great bacterial takeover, Your death microbiome could catch your killer. New Scientist, August 28, 2014.
  • [37] Siouxsie Wiles, Monday Micro – the microbiome of death! SciBlog: Infectious Thoughts, September, 1, 2014.
  • [38], Jesse Jenkins, The Death Microbiome: Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Biotechniques - The International Journal for Life Science Method, September 11, 2014.
  • [39] Randall Mayes, The Death Microbiome Could Inform Forensic Science And Medicine. Design & Trend, September, 11, 2014.
  • [40] Gulnaz Javan, The Dirty World of Body Farm Microbes. Forensic Science Magazine, September 30, 2014.
  • [41] Brad Harper, ASU researchers hope to help solve homicides. Montgomery Advertiser, July 8, 2014
    The Montgomery Advertiser is the largest daily newspaper in Alabama and it's won three Pulitzer Prizes, so it definitely counts as a real publication, though here at Wiktionary all that matters to us is that it's durably archived (a term which we haven't formally defined but roughly means you could go to a library and find the publication in question—in other words, we prefer print publications like books, magazines, and newspapers to websites). As for other people changing the entry you started, one of the most basic rules for participating in a wiki like Wiktionary is accepting that other people will edit pages that you start. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
The added citations do not include quoted text from the article (evidencing use of the word), so they need checking and filling out. The user adding them has just been putting summaries in his/her own words. Equinox 17:19, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I have removed the putative quotations from the entry in the mainspace; no more elegant solution comes to mind. It was only when I read your comment that I realized that these were not really quotations. The items are still in the page history, so the information is not lost, and he who wants to provide proper quotations should have a reasonable easy time doing so. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The first two citations on the citations page ("Distinctive thanatomicrobiome", "their thanatomicrobiome") are durable uses, AFAICT, but both are from August 2014. I reckon the thing to do is let this sit in hot-word limbo until late 2015 and then look for current uses. - -sche (discuss) 21:14, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

kol çekmek[edit]

There is no that word at the Turkish!!!! Somebodies are deleting rfv! --123snake45 (talk) 00:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

There are already citations. -- 08:12, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The entry was never de-tagged. 123snake45 I imagine you just forgot to list it (until now). Renard Migrant (talk) 11:50, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
There are already citations for the English senses, not the Turkish.--Prosfilaes (talk) 19:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
You think the citations in Citations:kol çekmek are in English? Renard Migrant (talk) 20:05, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, got confused. I thought that was a comment on kodak.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:09, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • RFV passed: some quotations at Citations:kol çekmek. I cannot judge their quality or fitness, but they do seem to be in Turkish, of the challenged term, and from permanently recorded media. Until someone challenges these quotations, this is a pass. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: The standard word that everybody uses for "to sign" is imzalamak (or imza atmak). Two of the citations are ok. Of the remaining 4 "citations", 1 is non-durably archived, and 3 are dictionary entries (Ottoman Turkish (2x), regional colloquial Turkish (1x)). If a third citation can be found, the entry can be kept, but needs to be tagged with "rare" (and possibly also with "archaic"?). -- Curious (talk) 20:50, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Added third citation from Google Books. --2001:A98:C060:80:5D7B:DD53:C14A:E234 09:35, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Fourth citation from Google Books --2001:A98:C060:80:31EF:CEE0:F5AE:802E 09:42, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
"RVF passed" 's decision is false. --123snake45 (talk) 20:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

November 2014[edit]


This looks like another dictionary-only phobia- everything in Google Books seems to be a mention. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:11, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

This is what I found: [42], [43], [44]. The first one is solid but the other two are on the fence between use and mention. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:24, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

generative leadership[edit]

I read a fuck of a lot of books and this entry is a strange mystery to me. What does it mean? Equinox 03:16, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Read this to see an explanation using real English sentences that actually mean things. The term looks citeable, but the definition given is only decipherable if you already know what it means and read between the lines. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I overlooked the second definition, which doesn't seem to mean anything at all. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:45, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
"Creating patterns that enable adaptive capacity across a system" sounds more like a tortured definition of fault-tolerant network design than anything to do with leadership. Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:47, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
It's very difficult to understand. If it's an exchange, what sort of exchange? In the sense of a discussion, or the sense of a swap? Renard Migrant (talk) 18:12, 2 November 2014 (UTC)


Only in the Smurfs universe? Needs to meet WT:FICTION. Equinox 17:36, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I have added some External links to meet the criteria of attestation. The smurfberry seen as a berry is, without any doubt, part of a fictional universe. The game curreny, however, isn't fiction at all. It was hard reality and quite a shock for a number of parents a couple of years ago.-- 19:25, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
The links only provide support for the game currency. The fictional sense needs cites that do not explicitly refer to the fictional universe: that's what we mean when we say it has "entered the language". See, for example, kryptonite. Choor monster (talk) 01:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
The usual interpretation is that the citations need to be on the page or the citations page, and they aren't. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
For 'fictional universe' refers to the content not the medium! A book made of paper, the paper isn't fictional but the information contained in the page may well be! Renard Migrant (talk) 16:12, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • To clarify. Citations don't actually have to be anywhere, unless challenged. There are only 2 kryptonite cites, for example, but since everybody knows it has entered the language, nobody is challenging it for the third to make it official. Referring to links is common during discussion, helping others judge the challenged term. At the moment, smurfberry the currency seems secure, but the fictional berry remains unsupported. Choor monster (talk) 16:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: the sole adjective sense 'unexpected'. Is this an adjectival at all? Renard Migrant (talk) 16:45, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

There are a number of phrases that take the form "a surprise NOUN". Purplebackpack89 18:00, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Invalid argument: same goes for "tractor" (tractor parts, tractor driver) but that's not an adjective. "Surprise" fails many of the typical tests for adjectivity: you can't have "more/most/very/somewhat surprise"; you can say "surprise party" but not "the party was surprise"; and so on. Equinox 18:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree. It's an attributive use of the noun, not an adjective. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, this is rfv (though I'm not sure why it isn't at rfd), so it's all about usage, not arguments. At any rate, the usage mentioned doesn't establish adjectivity for the reasons mentioned. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't make them adjectives: you don't say "that inspection was more surprise than the last one", you say, "that inspection was more of a surprise than the last one. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:09, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: It is at RfV because RfD tends to be a fact-free zone and facts could in principle show surprise to behave like a true adjective. We actually have criteria for "true adjective" use, unlike the situation for multi-word entries. The burden of proof is on those with insight into some type of true adjective use to demonstrate such use. The longer minimum time period before removal of items is useful to give advocates more of a chance. There is a substantial bias toward deleting these because linguistically naive contributors are inclined to take attributive use of a noun as an indication that the noun is also an adjective. A weakness of the process is that we rarely add examples of the noun in attributive use as usage examples for the noun definitions. DCDuring TALK 18:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Are we sure it is a good idea to single out one particular sense that arises in attributive use, as the definition "unexpected" in this case? For example, in the surprise element (aka the element of surprise) the element is not unexpected, it is a desired and planned-for feeling of surprise, which may indeed be expected, as in those attending a horror movie. DCDuring TALK 19:32, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
It may be planned and expected in some way (as in expect the unexpected), but there's something unexpected about it for the viewer, otherwise it wouldn't provoke the "feeling of surprise". Chuck Entz (talk) 21:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Attestation is the key. Nouns can't be qualified by adverbs such as "very surprise" "more surprise" "the most surprise". I wasn't the tagger it was tagged by Hamaryns in December 2013. Not really relevant because we go on the merits of the entry, not who tagged it. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
There are thousands of citations for google books:"very surprise" and google books:"so surprise". I've found nothing yet (scannos for "very surprised" mainly) but I have looked. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


I can't find any reference to this as a separate noun. The usual term for a Sami person seems to be sápmelaš, while sámi is only the genitive form of Sápmi (Lapland). —CodeCat 15:33, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

An additional note: Judging from w:se:Sámit, it seems that the plural sámit is used to refer to the Sami collectively, as a people. But I haven't seen it used in the singular with this meaning so far. —CodeCat 15:43, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Sámi is unambiguously the accusative-genitive of Sápmi. This word in general is cited to have also the sense "a Sámi person" e.g. at the Neahttadigisánit dictionary, so I suspect citations for that can be found. I suspect someone has been confused with the attributive use of the noun though in adding a lemma for the inflected form. --Tropylium (talk) 16:44, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
We are now talking of sámi with minuscule "s". According to Finnish wiktionary (Northern Sami Wiktionary is still in incubator stage) and our entry Sami, sámi is an adjective, which of course does not necessarily exclude other senses. I changed the entry accordingly. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:35, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
That's not really any better, I'm afraid. The -m- in "sámi" is a weak-grade consonant, so it doesn't normally appear in the nominative form (gradation in Northern Sami is like Finnish, but all the consonants gradate), while it does appear in the genitive. So I think that Sápmi and Sámi relate to each other in the same way as Finnish Suomi and Suomen (and quite likely have the same origin too, but that's another matter). The difference is that in Northern Sami, the lowercase version also refers to the people, but only in plural. Maybe the genitive is an exception to that, and this is simply how Northern Sami handles plurale tantum nouns (i.e. no singular forms but there is still a genitive). —CodeCat 19:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
It's true that sámi is the genitive form of sápmi, but that does not automatically make sámi invalid as a word. Flipping through the scarce information available of Sami language in the internet I found several occasions in which sámi is defined as an adjective. I would assume that the genitive has acquired a new meaning at some point of the development of the language. I'm not a Sami expert but I'm quite certain that you aren't one either. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
It does exist as a word, but I think people are misinterpreting it as a separate lemma. This is not surprising given that many people interested in Sami languages and culture would be speakers of other languages which don't have such things as case systems. If an English speaker saw "suomen kieli" and knew that it meant "Finnish language" then they might be tempted to think that "suomen" is an adjective meaning "Finnish". I suspect something like that may be going on here.
My own interpretation is that sámit is a plurale tantum referring to Sami people, but its singular genitive form is used attributively. I think User:Tropylium knows more about this than anyone else, so his views would be welcome. —CodeCat 15:53, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this is what I was saying: sámi is, in the cited sense, definitely not a lemma. Northern Sami has both attributive and predicative forms of adjectives, the latter are taken as the lemma, and this is an attributive.
It'd still take further verification to determine if the adjectival use actually checks out though. I hope our small number of Category:User se-2 people might have better knowledge of this yet. --Tropylium (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean with "In the cited sense not a lemma"? The article was originally written of sámi as if it were a noun. However, based on what I've read, it seemed that it would be an adjective and I have changed the entry accordingly. Are you saying it's not an adjective either? --Hekaheka (talk) 00:56, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
We seem to be mixing together far too many different questions by now. Let's try to be explicit about what we are discussing.
  1. Semantics.
    • Sápmi, uppercase, exists in at least one sense: 1. "the land of the Sami people" (proper noun) (NB: not "Lapland", which covers also traditional Finnish and Swedish territories!)
    • The word IPA(key): /saːpmi/ is moreover used also in two other senses: 2. "Sami" (adjective); 3. "a Sami person" (common noun).
  2. Capitalization.
    • I am still not able to take a definite stance on if the two latter senses should be uppercase or lowercase. I have by now checked a couple other dictionaries, which all seem to only report the capitalized Sápmi (acc. Sámi); I have also checked some grammars, which seem to at least use the word in these senses as the lowercase sápmi (acc. sámi). Probably we should dig into some Sami media for citations.
    • Another question I do not know the answer to is if there is any semantic difference depending on the capitalization.
    • I do know that sámit, "Sami people", is always lowercase.
  3. Lemmatization.
    • If it turns out that lowercase sápmi "a Sami person" is valid, then probably sámit "Sami people" needs to be treated as simply its plural, and not a separate plurale tantum (cf. e.g. Brits, Finns).
    • The form ‹sámi› is definitely not a lemma, but merely an inflected form of ‹sápmi›.
Am I being clear enough yet?
(I think we went off the rails already at the beginning — I interpreted CodeCat as asking whether the accusative deserves an entry as a separate lemma, while I now think she was asking if the meaning "a Sami person" is correct; and then Hekaheka introduced the question of capitalization.) --Tropylium (talk) 11:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)



I added this sense, but I wonder if it's "dictionary only" because I can't find actual usages, so I'm inclined to delete it unless someone else can verify that the word is actually used with this meaning. Dbfirs 08:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

One citation:
  • The circus band was elevated from strong-lipped windjamming to artistic renditions of classical overtures and standard selections
However, it looks like in the musical sense, it's usually written hyphenated. It also specifically seems to mean "playing a wind instrument badly" (possibly, it even refers to a specific fault that wind players make):
  • When he plays you hear no whistling and wind-jamming, none of the little mannerisms that ordinarily make flute-playing a trifle unpleasant.
  • Where Buescher True-Tone Instruments predominated there was a noticeable absence of that blatant wind-jamming that often makes the brasses sound a trifle unpleasant when amateurs play
  • This includes two French horns - played by troupers who are good - but the rest are all melophone or rain-catchers (bell ups) of the old style, and when they put on a wind-jamming contest you can bet the barking irons are there.
Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. (I obviously wasn't using the best search request in Google.) I'll leave the sense in the entry and remove the rfv.
... waiting until Thursday 20th in case anyone else wishes to comment here ... Dbfirs 16:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

gain ground[edit]

Rfv-sense: "to become farther from another traveling the same course."

I think this is included in the sense of "make progress; obtain advantage", but there may be something distinct that I don't see. DCDuring TALK 13:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I suppose it is meant to be more literal, but I find it very confusing. If you are behind someone then gaining ground would mean getting closer, not further away. 03:16, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I think you are correct in being confused. I think the challenged definition would apply to the leader, though not the follower in a competition. DCDuring TALK 08:47, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

lose ground[edit]

Rfv-sense: "To become closer to another traveling the same course"

Same as for #gain ground above. DCDuring TALK 13:59, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd say they are redundant, and, even if we keep them, the definitions are inadequate, since they depend on point of view (leader or follower). Dbfirs 09:40, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree, they sound citable as poorer version of definitions we already have. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


Stag's testicle. Possibly for food, but I'm not sure. It looks like it may be a "dictionary-only" word. --Type56op9 (talk) 15:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks to me like it's a Middle English variant of doucet < dulcet, and "dowcet mete" is attested in 1440 to mean sweetbread. But generally it looks like a synonym for "sweet". --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 20:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
RFV-failed as English. Kept as Middle English per the comment above. - -sche (discuss) 21:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Dutch for rigid. An anon removed it with the edit summary “That's wrong.” — Ungoliant (falai) 19:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I think difficult, tight, stiff, rough , but better to wait for a native speaker...those can be synonymous with "rigid" Leasnam (talk) 22:10, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
The primary meaning is still "not smooth, not flowing/sliding freely" but this can be extended to meaning rigid in the sense of "difficult to move". It doesn't mean rigid in the meaning "not bendable". At least not literally; perhaps when referring to a person's willingness to cooperate, stroef and star may be close to synonyms (I'm not sure though). —CodeCat 23:30, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


I was able to find very few uses of this in running English text ([45], [46], [47], [48]) all italicise the term, and none supports the first definition. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:35, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


Tons of Google books hits, but when you click through, almost all of them are actually scannos of "post-disco" (and lots of them are actually from the same book of supposedly copyrighted Wikipedia-rips reuploaded hundreds of times to flood Amazon). I can only find one that's actually "postdisco": "Tina Turner, a veteran soul performer who had long fronted the band led by her one-time husband, the R & B and rock pioneer Ike Turner, refashioned herself into a postdisco diva" Are there any others? Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:16, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually there are a fair few unhyphenated occurrences in Google Books. Added two to the adjective, but they might apply to the noun too/instead. May look harder later. Equinox 13:33, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


I'm not sure about this spelling in Yiddish. --WikiTiki89 18:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks like an error. Embryomystic (talkcontribs), what source did you use? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I can't seem to find a source, and it may be an error on my part, though there are a number of examples of it that come up if you google the phrase (and I don't mean just Wiktionary and mirrors thereof). If I've erred, feel free to remove the entry of course. I won't argue with you. embryomystic (talk) 22:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
If you found examples, what is your question? I checked, and it showed up on The Forward, and it's an entry in [49]. The non-Hebrew spelling reflects the Yiddish pronunciation. I was privileged to hear a friend last month, a week before his hasanah, do the complete song quoted in fragments at The Forward. And yes, his fluent-from-birth Yiddish pronunciations were distinctly non-Hebrew. Here are links to another song, along with this Yiddish spelling: [50] and [51]. The latter is a blog, but you can see it's quoting from a recording. Choor monster (talk) 18:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
I looked it up in about 6 or 7 dictionaries, including Yiddish-Hebrew, Yiddish-Russian, Yiddish-German. Also, I looked up Chaim Grade Di Agune, since it has a big Simchat Torah scene. All of them had the Hebrew spelling exclusively. Choor monster (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Yiddish dictionaries all copy each other, so it could be a "dictionary-only" spelling. Where did you look up Di Agune? Also, what do you mean by the "Hebrew spelling"? Both spellings are used in Hebrew, but the one with the extra yud is by far less common. --WikiTiki89 00:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I've only seen it without the yud, so I assume that is the Hebrew spelling, and the with-yud version, based on this discussion was, I presumed, a Yiddish-only spelling. As I said, the with-yud version was not in the dictionaries, and not in Grade's novel. I looked up Di Agune, like all the dictionaries (other than the linked-to online dictionary), in a library. Choor monster (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Ok, so I misunderstood you. I have two Yiddish dictionaries, both of which are fairly prescriptive and spell it with the yud in the lemma, but give שׂמחה as an alternative form of שׂימחה. So I was referring to the with-yud spelling (the one nominated here) as the potentially dictionary-only spelling. --WikiTiki89 17:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I will point out that the library had four editions of Harkavy; I only checked the most recent. I will probably look again later this week. Choor monster (talk) 14:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
The 1910 version is available online: http://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/yiddish/harkavy/index.utf8.html .--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:00, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The 1910 one gives the spelling שמחת־תורה. --WikiTiki89 01:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

raon tionnsgalach[edit]

Scottish Gaelic. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Its meaning is clear -- "industrial area" -- but I can't find any attestations online of that phrase. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Came across it in Lochgilphead [52]. --Droigheann (talk) 23:02, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
The given synonym, ionad-gnìomhachais, is clearly in use: a Google search turns up various Scottish tourist brochures, BBC news articles, etc. But, unhelpfully, there is nothing in Google Books or Usenet. I suppose if someone can find a physical book that contains a mention of either of these terms, that will be helpful (as Scottish Gaelic is LDL). This, that and the other (talk) 08:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

First Amendment[edit]

RFV the adjectival senses: "Of or relating to the US Bill of Rights" and "Of or relating to free speech in general". The second one should be relatively easy to do, but I doubt the first one is attestable at all. Keφr 08:26, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Relating not just to the First Amendment? I'd like to see both attested and as true adjectives in both senses, or even "of or relating to the First Amendment" as a true adjective. DCDuring TALK 11:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, I have seen "First Amendment" used in contexts where there is no government involved at all, which means it cannot refer to the literal sense ("Congress shall make no law…"). Not that I like this usage, but I think it plausible that it can be demonstrated.
Also, does "attestation as a true adjective" mean that you require citations of predicative uses? Obviously "First Amendment" cannot be graded. Keφr 12:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Are you some kind of Constitutional literalist? I suppose you don't believe in a Constitutional right to privacy either. But seriously, [] .
I think we can find use of the noun applied to free speech of all kinds, even in a non-governmental context (eg, school or university rules, non-governmental public meetings, child-parent relationships), ie, there is a missing sense of the noun. If there is such use, then that also covers attributive use in that sense. But I'm more skeptical about First Amendment referring to the entire Bill of Rights, either as a noun or an adjective.
Predicate use is usually the most abundant true-adjective use, though it can be a bit tedious to sift through the raw hits to find the good ones.
WordNet supports the more general 'free expression/free speech' sense of the term with this definition: "an amendment to the Constitution of the United States guaranteeing the right of free expression; includes freedom of assembly and freedom of the press and freedom of religion and freedom of speech;" DCDuring TALK 13:23, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I think the de facto adjective test for English is gradable use, or non-gradable use where it cannot be a noun as no such noun exists. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Absence of gradability is not sufficient evidence that something is not an adjective. A sufficiently distinguished sense of the word when used attributively is sufficient to show something is an adjective. Use as predicate is less definitive because some uses as predicate of a word that is at least sometimes a noun don't feel (God help me!) like adjective use. DCDuring TALK 18:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, can you think of an example of a predicative use of a word that doesn't feel like an adjective? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:23, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
In "The sidewalk is cement", cement doesn't 'feel' much like an adjective to me, but I'd be interested in how others 'feel' it. DCDuring TALK 23:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
  • That looks to me like a predicate non-count noun, same as that blue thing is water or this food is fish. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:56, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
This adjective represent two of the six ever edits by (talk). Look at the other three in the main namespace. I'm sure we're wasting our time here and yet, due process. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:17, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
No, due process is the Fifth Amendment... ;) - -sche (discuss) 03:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

set phrase[edit]

2nd sense: "A common expression whose words cannot be replaced by synonymous words without compromising the meaning. " --- Isn't this the definition of "idiom" and actually a special case of the previous definition "A common expression whose wording is not subject to variation"? --Hekaheka (talk) 13:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Dictionaries that define set phrase often have idiom as the definition or as a synonym. DCDuring TALK 14:05, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
If we accept that "set phrase" and "idiom" are synonyms, we still need to judge how many definitions we need. The Onelook dictionaries which list "set phrase" use the following wordings:
  • Oxford: "An unvarying phrase having a specific meaning, such as “raining cats and dogs,” or being the only context in which a word appears, e.g., “aback” in “take aback.”"
  • Vocabulary.com, Rhymezone, Free Dictionary and Look WAY up: "An expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up."
None of them has two definitions. I'm not convinced we should either. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:53, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
If "idiom" is an exact definition of one way people use the term and others use it to mean a particular type of idiom, to wit, "an idiom which allows no substitution of synonyms or insertion of modifiers" and both are attestable, how can we exclude one? Very few people would accept the second as a definition of idiom.
The Gang of Four above are using the WordNet definition, which is exactly the same as one of the WordNet definitions for idiom and indeed for any in the synset consisting of idiom, idiomatic expression, phrasal idiom, set phrase, phrase.
The Oxford definition is more like the narrower definition, but "unvarying phrase" abstracts from inflection and pluralization, one or both of which may be possible, eg, rain can inflect in rain cats and dogs but neither cat not dog can be in the singular. I didn't find WP much help. DCDuring TALK 23:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
It appears to be essentially the same as definition #1, which is undisputed. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:43, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Part of what adds to the confusion are the usage notes, which present in prose what should be in synonyms and hyponyms sections, once the distinct senses are recognized and straightforwardly defined. DCDuring TALK 13:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
'Setness' is something that is not quite as absolute as a naive user of the entry might think. Word order, inflection, grammatical transformations (eg, passivization), substitution of synonyms, insertion of determiners, and insertion of adjectives or other modifiers are all departures from the strictest sense of 'setness'. The set of phrases what allow absolutely no variation is relatively small. ('Kick the bucket' allows some verb inflection. Some proverbs might be absolutely invariant, but are not typical set phrases.) Some of the use of the term set phrase seems to include semantically transparent expressions that are nonetheless "invariant" because of their role as speech acts, broadly defined, or simply by dint of repetition, eg, catchphrases. Moreover, some uses of 'set phrase' seem to refer to expressions that do allow substitution of synonyms though one form is often significantly more common, especially in a specific time period and usage context. Rather than incorporate specific criteria such as "substitution of synonyms" into the definitions, we could use multiple (at least two) definitions as stakes that are not too specific, but near the boundaries of the range of meaning.
How about replacement of the definitions as follows?
  1. An common expression whose wording is not subject to little variation.
  2. Any idiomatic expression A common expression whose words cannot be replaced by synonymous words without compromising the meaning.
I know this is RfV, but I am not really happy trying to specifically cite the definitions as currently worded and I would like opinions before changing the entry. DCDuring TALK 14:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
FWIW, your first definition corresponds to my understanding of the meaning. SpinningSpark 17:37, 26 November 2014 (UTC)


Attestable?! Has anyone ever said this? It sounds like a joke made up for a book of tongue-twisters. Equinox 22:38, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

This is a definite known regional phrase, maybe in rare usage nowadays? (Actually, it was only recent that I've heard of this, so I thought I'd put it on Wiktionary.) Anyway, I've put a cite on the page, but I'm not sure if that's enough as I'm struggling to find it used in the media or books. CokeHanx (talk) 15:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't think anyone who actually trying to transcribe the Yorkshire dialect (instead of just making a joke) would ever write this as "tintintin" though. It's "'t i'n't in t' tin" (although perhaps with fewer apologetic apostrophes), which means exactly wha i' says on't tin (sorry!). Anyway, found a couple of citations that could fit, but one is immediately explained afterwards and in both cases, the context is "Don't those Tykes speak funny?" 1 2. Smurrayinchester (talk) 16:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I've added one of those citations (2004), but the other is a mention, not a use. CokeHanx's 2011 citation is likewise a mention, not a use. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm a Yorkshireman and it looks like baloney to me. The pronunciation's fractionally off, and more importantly I see no reason anyone would ever write it that way. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:40, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, as another Yorkshireman, I agree that it's a mis-spelling and a misrepresentation, though it might well appear as a puzzle or joke. Dbfirs 17:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm finding it hard to understand how this could be a mis-spelling; I thought it were another one of those eye dialect spellings, like (laik = lek = layk) or (thissen = thee sen) for example. The way I see it, there's no standardised form of spellings such as these (as I choose to write them as 'laik' and 'thissen'). It seems alot easier to write it as 'tintintin' rather than ''t i'n't in t' tin' though, even when pronouncing it as just 'tin tin tin'. CokeHanx (talk) 19:28, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Well Yorkshire spelling if fairly well standardised in the use of apostrophes, so I repeat my assertion that "tintintin" is both a mis-spelling (in that it doesn't follow established conventions), and a mis-pronunciation in that it sounds like a Southerner's attempt to imitate the dialect. Dbfirs 10:12, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I cannot believe that this is actually up for possible removal. Do youngsters even know how common this used to be, or are they.even from yorkshire? Anyone can be from yorkshire and still never heard the term.

I used to live just outside the Barnsley area and by gum I am not going to see something as funny as this get removed from the internet. It has already been given a source as to where it was used in a book, therefore it is a known spelling, so leave the bloody thing already.

Thank you and goodbye. 11:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Not removal -- that would be "Request for deletion". We are not doubting the existence, just questioning whether it is a dictionary word, and it is borderline. All it needs is one more citation to satisfy our criteria, so I've added one from the Sheffield area. Do Barnsley people actually pronounce it as a series of three stanna? I still think that the spelling is used as a deliberate joke. Tom Fletcher puts just one apostrophe in the "word" in his 1979 Bavarica Anglica. Dbfirs 13:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
@Dbfirs: The quotation you've added is a mention, not a use. (See Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion#Conveying meaning.) The 2011 quotation is also a mention, so we still need two more quotations for this to be verified. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you are correct (I'd just come to the same conclusion). I'm not sure whether we'll be able to find actual usages, since it is a joke word. Dbfirs 14:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)


Esperanto for "neutered cat". I can't find anything on Google Books, Tekstaro, or Google Groups, but there appears to be some interference from Finnish and romanized Japanese, so I may have missed something. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:55, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


Esperanto for "steer" (castrated bull). Nothing but mentions on Google Books, Tekstaro, and Google Groups. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


Esperanto suffix supposedly meaning "neutered". I couldn't find any uses of "ĉevaluko(j)(n)", "bovuko(j)(n)", "katuko(j)(n)", "kokuko(j)(n)", or "porkuko(j)(n)" on Google Books, Google Groups, or Tekstaro, and a search for the string "inuko" on Tekstaro found no results. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Google Groups and Google Books turn up only mentions for me too, in Usenet posts dating back as far as 1993, and PMEG (1985) (disaparagingly) mentioning it (giving ĉevalinuko, kokinuko, porkuko, bovuko, maskluko, an inuko as examples). One of the Usenet posts is an inquiry what "samideano Eikholz" meant by the affix, so perhaps someone named Eikholz used it somewhere, whoever that is. Seems perhaps amusing, but pretty useless. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 15:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC)


I suppose this can be kept, can't it? But I think there should be a note saying that it is marginal and that 'navigable' is preferred for all uses.

I see no evidence for the alleged specific meaning 'navigation of electronic media or web sites'.

I see evidence to the contrary: "the world's highest navigatable lake", "navigatable and unchartable territories", "Rivers were made navigatable". All from the first 20 hits on Google Books. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
I've added four quotations to the entry and changed the definition to "Alternative form of navigable". I hope that resolves the concern about the definition being too narrow. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:01, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Could I push you to nonstandard form of? Renard Migrant (talk) 23:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to change it—I don't have strong feelings about it. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
It is not common enough to appear in COHA and occurs about 0.1% as often as navigable and about the same recently as navagable, which is an uncommon misspelling. Navigable is a word that has declined by a factor of 10 since the early decades of the 19th century, when inland water transport, including by canal, was revolutionary and important. Navigatable seems to be a sign that navigable may be drifting out of use for some, who probably haven't heard or read it and are producing a term suitable for their meaning from navigate. How does that make it nonstandard?
Etymologically, it is clearly not an alternative form of navigable, which is from a Latin adjective, not navigate. DCDuring TALK 15:58, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I thought I preferred "non-standard form of" since Wiktionary is the only dictionary in which the word appears, and, though the word is certainly used, it is still extremely rare compared with "navigable" and doesn't seem to convey a different meaning. On the other hand, it meets our criteria for a newly-coined word. How can we determine whether those writers intended to coin a new word, or just made an error? Perhaps just a usage note would be appropriate. Dbfirs 09:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I find it hard to call something non-standard when someone uses a valid, productive English morphological process to produce a readily understandable word. A usage note that indicates that people will look askance at one's evident lack of reading if one uses navigatable rather than navigable might be appropriate, though it is hard to find evidence of authoritative disapproval. I can find mention of the navigable-navigatable doublet in lists of such doublets (appreciable/appreciatable, demonstrable/demonstratable, tolerable/toleratable, 'comparable/com'parable, reparable/repairable, operable/operatable, divisible/dividible/dividable) in books on morphology. The tolerable/toleratable pair illustrates that the accretion of meanings in the older form may make the purer morphological derivative yield a clearer meaning. Given the strong association of navigable with words like waters, rivers, waterways (navigable waterways having a legal meaning in the US), it would not surprise me that navigatable might come to be used where effortful navigation by a person needed to be conveyed. DCDuring TALK 16:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I've added a usage note to take into account this possibility. Please adjust it as you think appropriate. Dbfirs 21:34, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't read as very dictionary-like, but that might be a good thing, inviting contributions and striking a more explicitly descriptive note than we usually do. DCDuring TALK 22:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I was trying to avoid the use of prescriptivist "non-standard" without misleading readers about usage. The OED has operatable and demonstratable (and repairable of course). I've added our two missing words just as alternative forms because the shades of meaning are too subtle for me to distinguish reliably. Dbfirs 10:32, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree that whatever the subtle differences in meaning, if indeed there are any, they are hard to identify, at least in the case of navigatable/navigable, and quite likely others.
But in some cases, if they are indeed novel coinages using a productive morphological process, the meanings are likely to be limited to those corresponding to the most common, possibly the more literal, senses of the verb from which they are derived. DCDuring TALK 14:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that we need to examine each case on its merits. For the two words that I added, the coinage was long, long ago. Personally, I would use the longer form only if I wished to specially emphasise the direct connection with the verb, but historic usage doesn't seem to have been so selective.
In the special case of reparable/repairable, the two forms remained in parallel use for 140 years (1830 to 1970 approx) but the latter has now become the standard form, occurring three times more often than the shorter word in 1990 according to Google Ngrams. Dbfirs 22:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The word appreciatable is not common. Some usages seem to be in error (where appreciable is intended), but others carry a distinct meaning. I'm wondering how to show this in an entry. Dbfirs 22:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I tried using the context tag to indicate the limited context in which it is used. I hope we don't have "misspelling of too" as a definition line in [[to]]. DCDuring TALK 23:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, that looks about right. Dbfirs 23:41, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
We have a large number of "able" forms that are doublets of more common "ible" forms, some with variations in the root. See User:DCDuring/words ending in -ible. DCDuring TALK 01:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
See also User:DCDuring/words ending in -table. DCDuring TALK 11:21, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
I've added a less US-centric definition. The term is used outside the USofA! Sorry, the usage worldwide seems to be just sum of parts except for a British Act of Parliament. I'm checking. Dbfirs 23:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your clarification in the entry. Dbfirs 08:52, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
RFV-passed. If it still needs cleanup, I either move to RFC or boldly clean it up. - -sche (discuss) 21:20, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense. French: to agree. The usage example is for ça marche which means 'it works; it functions', which in fact I think is best translated by 'ok' or 'all right not 'I agree'. Does marcher ever mean to agree, which is what the definition says it does? Renard Migrant (talk) 16:21, 28 November 2014 (UTC)


Ungoliant (falai) 01:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


Rfv tagged but is not listed. -- 21:44, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

baruhu baruh shemó[edit]

Ladino term. Even google:"baruhu baruh shemó" finds close to nothing. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:06, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I suspect that there is a more common spelling that is attestable, but this certainly isn't it. I would try things like "baruh u uvaruh shemo" or "baruch hu uvaruch shemo" (the latter is also one of the common transliterations of the Hebrew phrase, so it would be hard to attest as specifically Ladino). --WikiTiki89 17:01, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


Spanish for BS (bullshit). Any attestation? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


Romanian: honeysuckle. Any attestation? (Tagged for deletion by a native speaker as a misspelling of caprifoi.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:41, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


I think it might be attestable, but I am not sure. I found something which looks like a mention:

  • 1812, Antoine-Vincent Arnault, Fables, page 134
    (29) En oût ce fut tout autre chose. J'ai cru pouvoir écrire oût au lieu d'août, et en cela je suis autorisé par l'usage. On dit aussi communément oût qu'août. Ce mot oût est employé dans les campagnes pour le mot moisson. La fontaine s'en est ...

Keφr 17:11, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I think it's just about attestable as an archaic spelling of août. I've seen it attributed to Jean de La Fontaine in La Cigale et la Fourmi (i.e. The Ant and the Grasshopper). Renard Migrant (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the French Wiktionary has two cites from Jean de La Fontaine's Fables, and also mentions Émile Littré's, Dictionnaire de la langue française, 1872-1877. Dbfirs 17:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Side question: Kephir's citation suggests that in 1812 oût and août were pronounced differently. Is the modern pronunciation of août actually a relic of oût? --WikiTiki89 17:29, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
[53][54][55][56][57][58]. Wyang (talk) 20:19, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
No it's suggesting that oût is a phonetic rendering of août because people had already stopped dropping the initial 'a' sound. I think the Old French aoust would be pronounced /a.ust/, see w:Old French language#Phonology. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:37, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


A Spanish word meaning BS (probably bullshit)? Any attestating quotations? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:27, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I also think it's probably bullshit. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:38, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

December 2014[edit]


rfv of the English section


  1. (US, dialect) Used to show disagreement or negation; no.

This sounds pretty implausible, but I tried to check, anyway. It's apparently a term in Indian philosophy, and it's real hard to filter out all the Latin text, so I bogged down after going through a hundred or so Google books hits. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I've added two noun senses and converted the RFV to an RFV-sense as a result. I can't find any attestation for the challenged sense. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 03:27, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
It must be a hoped-for alternative to negatory#Adverb. Why is it under a Particle PoS header? DCDuring TALK 15:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (slang) attractive, popular

I've come across this exactly once: in the movie Mean Girls, where it is a slang term invented by one of the characters which doesn't catch on. Google Books results for "so fetch", "totally fetch", "fetch outfit" etc find nothing useful, and the only relevant Google Groups hits are discussing the movie Mean Girls. So, is this just fancruft, or has someone made fetch happen? Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


RFV of the noun sense "A deliberately misleading explanation." and the verb sense "To give a deliberately false interpretation of." It's not in the OED, but it is in M-W. Anyway, it would be nice to have quotations. --WikiTiki89 15:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

The OED has "to veil in specious language". This is the same sense, isn't it? This sense seems to be derived via both etymological routes. Dbfirs 16:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)



I don't think this satisfies WT:BRAND. Also, the entry here uses different capitalization than the company itself -- the proper brand name is apparently CyberKnife (c.f. google:cyberknife). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Seems to have been genericised to some extent:
  • 2007, György T. Szeifert, Radiosurgery and Pathological Fundamentals, page 47:
Typically, this latter approach is realized with Gamma Knife, with linacs that use the mulitple static noncoplanar converging arc technique (gantry moving during treatment with a beam shaped by an additional circular collimator) and with cyberknives.
  • 2007, Stephen J. Withrow, David M. Vail, Withrow and MacEwen's Small Animal Clinical Oncology, page 207:
Radiosurgery may use technology similar to that for IMRT or may be delivered with a cyberknife.
  • 2008, Yawei Zhang, Encyclopedia of Global Health: Q-Z, page 1463:
This technique uses gamma knives and cyberknives to specifically irradiate specific portions of the brain tumors.
  • 2010, Connie Yarbro, Debra Wujcik, Barbara Holmes Gobel, Cancer Nursing: Principles and Practice, page 298:
This technological combination enables the cyberknife to overcome the limitations of older frame-based radiosurgery equipment such as the gamma knife and LINAC.
  • 2011, Francisco Contreras, Beating Cancer: Twenty Natural, Spiritual, and Medical Remedies That Can Slow--and Even Reverse--Cancer's Progression, page 7:
"Meanwhile, even as I write these words, new technologies such as lasers, 3-D imaging devices, proton therapy, robotic surgery, DNA laboratory exams, cyberknives and fiber-optic cameras are assisting physicians in the field.
  • 2013, Jeff C. Bryan, Introduction to Nuclear Science, Second Edition, page 177
As a type of IGRT, cyberknife machines collect diagnostic images during therapy to optimize location of the beam.
I'd recommend moving this to lowercase cyberknife, and maybe having Cyberknife/CyberKnife as alternative case forms. Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Moved to cyberknife, which passes RFV as a genericized trademark. - -sche (discuss) 21:29, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Is this attested in use in the middle of an English sentence as an English word, ideally without italics? --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:02, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Added a few citations. The top three all seem to be from books that italicise some foreign words, but not tovarich. Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)


The "Zero Force" sense specifically (set theory sense should be easy). Keφr 18:07, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Cited. Equinox 18:11, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. The citations look rather adjectival; maybe the definition should be changed to "zero-force" (and put under an "Adjective" header)? Keφr 19:33, 6 December 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "A dish, based on Japanese cuisine, the chief ingredient of which is raw fish; sashimi."

I'm well aware that sushi is often defined by its fish component (same thing in Sweden), but that seems to always be in a context where sushi is actually served. People are clearly aware of the rice component, but are not aware that it actually defines it as sushi. However, going from that observation to creating a separate dictionary definition for the minor misunderstanding is making a lot of assumptions. And then to also define it as a type of synonym of sashimi just makes the argument both speculative and circular.

I'm all for adding a note about the confusion of fish vs rice, btw. But I'm against adding it as a separate sense unless it's described that way in other dictionaries.

Peter Isotalo 00:33, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The following quotations were added just recently:
    • 2002, Philip M. Tierno, The Secret Life of Germs: Observations and Lessons from a Microbe Hunter, page 144:
      "Never eat raw fish?" outraged sushi lovers will cry.
    • 2009, Roy MacGregor, The Complete Screech Owls, volume 3, page 16:
      I thought you'd have known all about sushi, Nish,” said Jenny.
      “What is it?” snarled Nish. “It looks alive!”
      “It's raw,” said Sarah. “Raw fish.”
    • 2012, Alison Acheson, Molly's Cue, page 26:
      'Can't eat sushi?' I said. Then Mom said, 'You can't eat uncooked fish when you're pregnant' as if I'm the one stupid enough to go and get pregnant!
The first one I simply removed outright since it doesn't imply anything other than that sushi usually contains raw fish. The third quote is pretty much the same thing. The context of the second quote can be found here.[59] A few sentences on, it describes the dish as "a little roll of rice with small, green sprigs of vegetable around it".
I'm getting the sense that this definition is there solely because people like focusing on a minor cultural misunderstanding. It smacks of proscriptive smugness. You know along the lines of "hahaa... well, I believe you actually mean sashimi". That's not a definition of words. It's more of an attempt to pretend you can read people's minds.
Peter Isotalo 08:52, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
It's not about a "minor cultural misunderstanding" or prescriptive smugness, it's about sushi being used to describe meals that contain raw fish, even in contexts where no rice is involved:
  • I ordered the sushi burrito on the top of the menu: salmon, tuna, tempura shrimp, fried wonton strips, guacamole, radish sprouts, jalapenos, pickled sunomono, green onions, wasabi mayo and habanero sauce.
  • The wait is perhaps the most brilliant ploy conceivable to tease their customers, as the hammered and hungry must stand and watch others get their raw fish fill first. The novel sushi sandwich — fish wedged between crispy tempura chips — is a first for many and a must-try.
  • Maybe it was because I'd been eating too much pizza, or maybe I am just a sucker for bold flavors, but I could have eaten a lot of Morimoto's sushi pizza. He used a crisply grilled flour tortilla, topped it with an eel sauce, raw tuna, red onion and and jalapeno slivers, fresh tomatoes, and cilantro, and then finished it with an anchovy aioli and some Tabasco sauce.
The split in meanings is not unlike that which burger underwent - the word can denote either any type patty, or the sandwich around it (even though the original German dish has little to do with bread rolls or flat patties). Smurrayinchester (talk) 11:17, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, all of those examples are clearly compounds. It's "sushi <food>" in every instance, not just "sushi". "Burger" is very different, since that word can mean both patty and the sandwich it's included with. Not so with "sushi".
Again, I see no problem in adding more info on the rice/fish confusion, including association with tortillas, pizza and whathaveyou. But the noun "sushi" by itself does not mean "sashimi" since any attestation is based on personal assumptions of the reader, and a heavy dose of semantic proscription. There are tons of these misunderstandings, but that doesn't mean that we list Switzerland as a synonym for Sweden (happened all the time when I was in the US) or that "dollar" is a synonym for "currency".
Peter Isotalo 12:37, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
The fact remains that a lot of people simply mean "raw fish" when they say "sushi". It may be technically incorrect, but that's the usage. Semantic change doesn't always make sense- nice used to mean ignorant or stupid, fond meant foolish, glad meant smooth or slick, sad meant heavy. Strictly speaking, gorillas aren't monkeys and specie isn't the singular of species- but I hear people use them that way all the time. In the real world most people who talk about sushi have never eaten it, and have no clue what sashimi is. Relegating the vast majority of usage to a usage note is what's proscriptive. I may not have cites handy, but a lifetime of hearing people use the word has to count for something. Actually, I do have a few: this, this and this clearly show that the writers are aware that most people think sushi means raw fish. These are proscriptive attempts to correct common, existing usage. I would even go so far as to say that this passes as clear widespread usage. Or how about this and this? Although they're clear about sushi containing rice, they also rely on "raw fish" being an essential part of the concept of sushi. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Sashimi is a specific type of dish just like sushi. It's "slices of fish" in the same sense that steak tartare is limited to "raw minced beef". Sashimi is served in a specific manner wich sauces and whathaveyou. And it's actually not even limited to fish, but can also include various mollusks, beef or even horse.
You pretty much have to see actual sashimi or at least be aware of it to literally identify it as "sushi". That calls for extremely specific attestations and none of the ones you've provided here comes even close. Most of of them are used in contexts where the language user clearly knows the distinction and is merely pointing out differences. The rest belong to the vague "ugh, raw fish is strange"-category of statements. That doesn't qualify as a separate meaning or language shift that comes even close to "sad" or "burger".
Peter Isotalo 06:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
It's pretty clear to me that sushi, to many English speakers, means a dish including raw fish.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:05, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Chuck that this is in widespread colloquial use. I humbly admit to having had the same the misunderstanding some decades ago.
@Peter Isotalo: re: "Well, all of those examples are clearly compounds". Well, they look like attributive use of the noun sushi. Attributive use counts for the semantics once something has been established as a noun. OTOH, SMurray's first cite contains a picture that shows that the product being described in fact has rice in it.
It is easy to add to Chuck's documentation of widespread acknowledgement of the popular misunderstanding, for example:
  • 2011, Judi Strada, ‎Mineko Takane Moreno, Sushi For Dummies:
    When we say “sushi,” what do you think? Raw fish, right? Think again! Sushi actually means vinegared rice, which is the key ingredient in every sushi recipe.
  • 2008, Lauren McCutcheon, A Virgin's Guide to Everything: From Sushi to Sample Sales:
    Sushi: Vinegared rice. (We know, we know, most of the world thinks sushi means raw fish. No reason to be like the rest of the world.)
It's harder to find documentation for an identity between sushi and shashimi, but not as hard to find assertions of identity between sushi and raw fish"
  • 1991, Eileen Nauman, My Only One, page 36:
    "Sushi? What is that?" He went back to his seat behind the desk and took the cover off his tray. "Raw fish. Everyone eats it over in Japan, and it's all the rage in the States now."
  • 2009, Anthony Horowitz, Return to Groosham Grange: The Unholy Grail:
    “What's sushi?” Eileen asked. She was feeling quite carsick. “It's raw fish!” Mildred explained enthusiastically.
  • 2012, Diana Palmer, Merciless, page 200:
    “Sushi is raw fish,” Markie said with his blunt honesty, and made a face.
I suggest that we strike sashimi from the definition and substitute raw fish. DCDuring TALK 04:59, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
That's a very good point. "Raw fish" seems to be the definition we've actually been debating.
Peter Isotalo 18:58, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Any objections to the current secondary definition? Should the verification template be removed?
Peter Isotalo 10:35, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Definition 2, amended to say "raw fish" rather than "sashimi", passes based on the citations above, IMO. - -sche (discuss) 21:33, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Symbol: "The fourth transfinite cardinal". I find it quite implausible. The fourth transfinite cardinal is a relatively dull mathematical object, and whenever one does need to refer to it, ℵ3 suffices; there is no need for this notation.

In fact, I doubt it is attestable in any consistent sense at all. On arXiv I could only find this paper (on page 43), which looks like an ad-hoc definition, and an astrophysics paper (page 9), which is not even a use, but a mention. Keφr 07:23, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

A while ago, someone asked if was ever actually used, and User:Prosfilaes was able to ask the Unicode list, and someone there was able to dig up old paper records of why it was added to Unicode. Perhaps Prosfilaes can ask about this character and get some pointers to where it may have actually been used. Alternatively, perhaps User:Msh210 knows something about it. - -sche (discuss) 03:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I didn't ask the Unicode list, but I noticed The Not So Short Introduction to LaTeX 2e mentioned it as part of the symbols included in AMS-LaTeX. It was in AMS-TeX, which dates back to 1981-1984, but I don't know if it appeared in any version predating Unicode. However, the AMS apparently considered it useful enough to include (or just dragged it along when they copied Unicode).--Prosfilaes (talk) 13:12, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
I've no idea. Perhaps one of these folks can help.​—msh210 (talk) 07:41, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I've asked w:Talk:List of mathematical symbols and w:Talk:List of logic symbols. Let's leave this open for a while longer and see if anyone there responds. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Alt form of lesbo, i.e. slang for lesbian. Equinox 18:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

As an Australian I hear this from time to time, usually used as derogatory slang among youth. I can find some hits on Google Groups, mostly on non-Usenet Australian groups, but they aren't really helpful in citing the term (and since they aren't Usenet groups, not relevant in any case). I'd be surprised if there isn't more out there, since this definitely exists in some circles. This, that and the other (talk) 06:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
It's likely that this is confused with Lebo, another Australian slang term. I've definitely heard "lebo" being used to mean "lesbian" but maybe that is just the youth of today hearing the word "lebo" and assuming it is a shortening of "lesbian", when originally it was a shortening of "Lebanese". This, that and the other (talk) 06:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Ha, there's an old joke about that... [60]. - -sche (discuss) 02:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

organised loitering[edit]

Nothing in Google Books. Nothing in Google Groups. About 20 hits in a Web search, and even those are mainly mentions. Equinox 19:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I tried Googling organized loitering and got a few hits, including "I think baseball is "organized loitering". Donnanz (talk) 14:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
RFV failed. Equinox 23:23, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


One strong citation for this on Google Books:

The situation is about to get a googolfold worse.

The only other one I can find there is absolute word salad, which I don't think can be used to cite anything:

Mickey King Kong was a vampire, who was minutely one of the more than supermillionfold, millionesque, submillion, googolesque, googolfold, googolplexesque, and googolplexfold quasi-reincarnations of the great cone and Janie Seymour, being combinations of supervampirism, superlyncanthropy, super-O, superstigmata, piezoelectricity, superelectricity, tertiary abiogenesis, superabiogenesis, tertiary carmot, and supercarmot.

No sign of any adjectival use (e.g., no "googolfold increases"). Can anyone help? Smurrayinchester (talk) 15:02, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Usenet yields a couple of results: [61], [62]. There’s also one for googlefold: [63]. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:33, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I've added three citations for the adverb sense, including the first Google Books quote that you gave above. I note, though, that the Google Books quote uses a hyphen ("googol-fold"), but the hyphen occurs at a line break, so it's unclear whether the intended spelling is "googolfold" or "googol-fold". —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:34, 10 December 2014 (UTC)


Pursuant to the post in the TR, I couldn't find anything in BGC that was actually the exact word "allotroph" once I clicked on it that wasn't in fact a mention or the second sense, although I'm RFVing the whole thing since I'm not sure the second sense should be included either, as it is not exactly a misspelling but certainly not accurate, either. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:00, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

WP treats allotroph as a redirect to w:Heterotroph.
Our definition seems silly: where else would energy come from, the nuclear reactor one was born with?
I see apparent uses of allotroph more often in German scholarly works, with a meaning something like heterotroph, I think. I must leave that to someone with better German and biology/biochemistry than mine.
I saw English use at Google Scholar of allotroph where allotrope seems to me to be what was meant. DCDuring TALK 01:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
The definition might be simultaneously silly and true. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Would you like to wager that the definition in German would not translate to ours? (Not to say that one would not be able to see the source of the error.) DCDuring TALK 00:37, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


Tatar in Roman letters. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:40, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Some comments. We have deleted (after some failed RFV's) a number of Tatar entries in Latin spelling.
  1. Officially and most commonly, Tatar (Volga Tatar, not Crimean Tatar, a similar but a different language) is written in Cyrillic.
  2. The correct Tatar romanisation of "Бангладеш" is "Bangladeş", not "Bangladesh".
  3. There are some "efforts" to move Tatar, Kazakh and Kyrgyz spellings from Cyrillic into Latin on corresponding Wiktionaries, often helped by Turks. It happens before Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tatarstan (a republic in Russia) officially adopted Latin. The change may eventually happen (as with Uzbek, Turkmen and Crimean Tatar) but I think it's unhelpful to use the alphabet, which is not in common use.
  4. The changes are made by nationalists, not linguists, so there are many inconsistencies and mistakes. Turkish (-Tatar, etc.) dictionaries use incorrect forms and are full of mistakes. In most cases, the words cannot be verified. The artificial Tatar Latin spellings usually follow Turkish, English, Crimean Tatar or other spellings. The conversions results in a loss, e.g. letter "ь" is often ignored in the Roman spelling.

--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:13, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

  • This is RFV; it should only matter whether this spelling is attested in Tatar writing. It should not matter what is official and what is not. The fact that this is Tatar in Roman letters is not sufficient for removal via RFV, as per WT:CFI#Attestation. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    No rule against discussing entries on this page Dan Polansky. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:39, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    Just making sure we go by attestation, not by "this is not the official script", for which, as you know, there have been some tendencies around here despite English Wiktionary's being a descriptivist dictionary. Also making sure that, after this fails as unattested, it is not used as evidence of practice of going by an "official" script. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    By all means, Dan. There is no harm in giving some background. I'm interested to see how much (Volga) Tatar is written in Roman, which may affect Tatar entries in Roman letters. Previous RFV's showed that a number of Tatar written in Roman were actually Crimean Tatar or were copied from from Turkish-Tatar dictionaries with no attestation, some were just made up and could not be found. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:31, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    Exactly, sometimes you have citations but it's unclear or disputed in what language they actually are. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)


A Hawaiian name for a small town in Chile? And one with an impossible syllable structure for Hawaiian (the glottal stop ʻ, like all consonants in Hawaiian, must be followed by a vowel)? I'm skeptical. Hawaiian is an LDL so a single mention is sufficient. Google has nothing but us and mirrors. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The same editor added some other translations of Pichilemu that don't seem to turn up any Google results outside of Wikimedia projects and mirrors—I've added some of them below, but there are others too. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I believe there was an Old English entry as well, which, if memory serves, failed rfv. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:47, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
See Talk:Picelemu. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Hi there guys. I don't recall where exactly this spelling was obtained, probably from my IRC chats back in 2010 (?). Anyways, if there is no source for these spellings, best thing should be to delete them. I have no worries about that. Regards and, everyone keep up the good job at keeping Wiktionary as a correct tool! --Diego Grez (talk) 00:43, 18 December 2014 (UTC)


Lithuanian and Serbo-Croatian. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


Latin. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Just a reminder that the inflected forms must be deleted as well when this fails, as it surely will. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:57, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


Azeri. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


Esperanto. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


Latin. This one is harder to search for, since it's spelled the same way as the English and Spanish words, but I can't find anything durably archived that looks like Latin. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Albânia caucásica[edit]

Ungoliant (falai) 15:59, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Why? Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 21:36, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Because. Keφr 21:42, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
@Ready Steady Yeti: don’t blindly trust Wikipedia. They have no reservations when it comes to making up names. — Ungoliant (falai) 23:09, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:17, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido word with an unknown definition. I can't find it on Google Books or Google Groups. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:25, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by ‎Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:55, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

I can only find one Ido use: on devis diftongigar ai, oi, e pro to on skribis aj, oj.Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by ‎Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:56, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by ‎Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by ‎Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

I can only find one use: teroristi Kosovo-Albaniana detonigis bombo.Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by ‎Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:00, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

I've found one Ido mention and a couple of Esperanto uses, but no Ido uses. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:36, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by ‎Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:34, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Three quotations added. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:50, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


Ido, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Three quotations added. embryomystic (talk) 20:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
These are not from permanently recorded media. Furthermore, the second and the third are dependent (WT:CFI#Independent), since they are by the same author. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


Tagged but not listed. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

The term is correct and attestable. What is being verified here? Did the requester mean RFD? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Can citations be provided which pass WT:BRAND? Siuenti (talk) 23:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


Spanish verb meaning "to yiff". I looked around a little, but there seems to be nothing more than random internet comments. --Type56op9 (talk) 14:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Yiff also has four meanings. Which one is this? Renard Migrant (talk) 20:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


The first cite is not durably archived, the second is a mention. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

And the third has the wrong capitalisation. This editor is very obviously "Pass a Method"/"Zigazoo" and whatever else he has been calling himself. He already asked for an infinite block, and he is creating the same unattestable junk again, so I am blocking this IP too. Equinox 04:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Dubious etymology, just looks like a misspelling. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
RFV failed. Equinox 23:51, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Ungoliant (falai) 15:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit rusty on Dutch, but I think it's attestable. Unfortunately Dutch Wiktionary doesn't list the diminutive. Diminutives do not always follow the ending of the parent noun. This is something DrJos can answer, I imagine. Donnanz (talk) 19:53, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
Pinging User:DrJos: is this (rather than, say, bijwerkingje) the correct diminutive of bijwerking? I do see one citation on Google Books:
  • 2010, Mike Boddé, Pil: hoe een cabaretier zijn depressie overwon:
    Eerst geloofde ik het niet; het zal wel een bijwerkinkje zijn van de pillen of zo, dacht ik.
- -sche (discuss) 22:09, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The rule is that if there is a stressed syllable before the syllable with the "-ing" suffix, the last -g- turns into "-kje" to make it a diminutive. If the stress is earlier in the word -g- becomes -etje. So "bijwerking" becomes "bijwerkinkje" --DrJos (talk) 23:03, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Last time the arguments about whether or not to keep olinguito and the like came up, we agreed to keep it provisionally as a "hot word" to see whether usage satisfying CFI would appear once the term had existed for more than a year. This worked out for the English term, but I'm not sure there are any durably archived citations of this in Italian (I tried "gli olinguiti" and "l'olinguito" and did not find a single Italian use in a book), and more than a year has passed since Italians first used the word. This time, if we come up short we must delete the Italian entry. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Books are not the only source of citations. One definite print use from May 2014 here and one I'm uncertain about here (the website is "Partnered with la Repubblica", but I dont know whether that means la Repubblica reprints anything from it) which would push it over the one year mark. Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I think it’s spelled wrong for Italian. The Italian should be olinghito, as mentioned here. —Stephen (Talk) 06:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


ènal lists ènaux as a plural. Neither seem to be attested. I can only find ènal in combination e.g. "pent-4-ènal" (Chimie Organique, 2002) and never on its own. Énal is what I'd expect it to be called if it ever was used on its own, but perhaps it isn't. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but not listed. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:30, 23 December 2014 (UTC)



  1. Rather than.
    I would die affor giving up my virtue.

I can find no citation for this usage as a conjunction meaning "rather than". It's not in the OED, and the example sentence (also unsourced) is perfectly compatible with meaning given in the OED: a variant (Middle English) spelling of "afore" (= before). Gordonofcartoon (talk) 23:50, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

  • Relatedly, some of the quotations for the verb sense of affor look to me like they are actually uses of the preposition meaning "before" (though I don't know enough Middle English to be sure about all of them). If someone familiar with Middle English and Early Modern English could sort those out, that would be wonderful. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, and not just some - nearly all of the verb citations match afore (before) rather than "afford". A look at Google Books also finds no hits for "afforring" except an obvious OCR error for "affording"; nor for "afforred" (similar errors for "afforded"); nor for "affors", which appears as various misreadings such as "affors'd" (i.e. "aforesaid"), OCR error for "actors", and similar. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 16:07, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, there is no such verb. Why has it been sitting there in our entry for seven years? We need to delete this part of speech, but we can keep the cites as prepositions. The OED has afore as a conjunction meaning "before", but marks it as "Now archaic and regional". In my native dialect, "afore" is used to mean rather than where others might use "before" with the same meaning (see our entry: "rather or sooner than") at our entry for before (conjunction). I've never seen it spelt affor, but the OED has one cite with this spelling (as a conjunction in 1470). Dbfirs 20:06, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "types of quilted or depressed effects in fabrics". Added as a noun with no gender. I cannot find such a noun, therefore I can't add a gender! Renard Migrant (talk) 01:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)


Any takers? SemperBlotto (talk) 20:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't find anything promising on b.g.c, and OneLook's got nothing. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:36, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense (Portuguese): azure (heraldic colour). A French term rarely used in Portuguese (always italicized, indicating a foreign word). —This unsigned comment was added by Liuscomaes (talkcontribs).

Cited. — Ungoliant (falai) 14:47, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


rfv is tagged but not listed --123snake45 (talk) 19:17, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


rfv is tagged but not listed --123snake45 (talk) 19:19, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


There is no that word at the Turkish! --123snake45 (talk) 19:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Whatever the result of this, it would be nice for this, in Kazakh and Turkish (if that survives) to get an actual definition. program is decently polysemous, and thus a poor definition.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:44, 29 December 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense (Portuguese): (Non-standard, Fast Speech) but

Ungoliant (falai) 14:23, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

https://twitter.com/grupovolareijui/status/263297880809435138 (a reply)
hard to find it written. even harder recorded without a search tool. maybe that's indeed a wrong sense because I see myself using it instead of "mas" but not with a "but" sense.
—This unsigned comment was added by (talk) at 18:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC).

railway line[edit]

Sense 1: A rail is a rail, two parallel rails are needed in a railway line. I don't think that monorails are called railway lines either, just in case someone comes up with that argument. Donnanz (talk) 17:43, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm more confused about the other senses. To me, a railway line doesn't necessarily need two or more tracks, nor is there any distinction in meaning between having one track or several. The distinguishing part, for me, is that a railway line connects two or more places together. This is different from a railway track in that the latter generally refers to the physical track, without referring to its end points. —CodeCat 18:20, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. A line has to connect two places, if it doesn't (like if it's in a massive warehouse) it's just track. But I think there are two possible meanings, the physical track itself ("leaves on the line") and the route ("a new proposed line between Boston and New York"). Renard Migrant (talk) 18:44, 29 December 2014 (UTC).
The two terms can be synonymous. A railway track could be just a siding, or a single-track railway line linking several places. I live between two double-track railway lines which carry trains in and out of London Waterloo. Further away there are four-track railway lines in Surrey (Clapham Junction-Woking) and between London Paddington and Slough (and Reading I think). Each four-track railway line has four railway lines or tracks. I thought I explained it reasonably well in sense 3, it's only sense one I'm querying. Donnanz (talk) 19:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
To me, if one "pulls up the old railway/railroad tracks", that might mean only removing the rails and possibly any other salvageable components, but normally railway/railroad track would include the ties/sleepers, if any, and track bed, possibly the right of way too. A railway/railroad line necessarily includes track, but is basically a route, as was said above. In addition, in the US, at least in the 19th and most of the 20th centuries, railway/railroad line could also refer to the company that owned a railway line that served a route or the entire system of branches and possibly other "lines", eg, the (Rock Island line (common name of the Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railroad and the title of a once-popular song).
Other dictionaries have the "track-and-roadbed" sense for railway line.
But what I'd like to know is how the industry survived without terminological clarity. Such confusion is no way to run a railroad[64]. DCDuring TALK 19:44, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
There are wild variations in railway terminology between the US and UK, but I don't think a professional railwayman would call a single rail, even if it's CWR (continuous long welded) a railway line, wherever he is. Maybe the media does, but they're usually only a bunch of amateurs when it comes to railway matters. Donnanz (talk) 21:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
English isn't only used by specialists though. You don't need a PhD in physics to use the word 'temperature' for example. I don't see why a single-rail track couldn't be considered a line as long as it is a medium for trains to transport themselves from A to B. What about in Japan? English can be used about places where English isn't habitually spoken. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:41, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Though looking back that's not what's being disputed, as interesting as the debate is. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:43, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Often an RfV or RfD draws needed attention to an entry. So it is a good opportunity to do some cleanup. Also, I'm often reminded of possible missing colloquial entries, like no/any/helluva way to run a railroad, in the course of these discussions. If we put the non-RfV content in a different or smaller typeface, it might make clearer what was the main thread and what was peripheral. But do we really have to? DCDuring TALK 21:56, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I was trying to leave monorails out of this debate, as the rail is (usually) actually a beam. See National Motor Museum Monorail. Donnanz (talk) 22:06, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I might as well add monorail cat to WT:LOP. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:10, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
The name monorail was correct when it was first invented, but with the evolution of the species has become a semi-misnomer - not a protologism in the sense of that word. Donnanz (talk) 10:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
No, protologism means it isn't used. You're arguing about whether what they currently use is a rail or not. I say it is, because trains are running on it. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
A monorail is a means of transport, not a rail. The term has been in existence for a century or so. As I said in the beginning, a rail is a rail, so when does it become a beam? Donnanz (talk) 11:08, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Flowing; unstable; inconstant; variable. I tried the first couple at onelook.com and they had no entry. Any evidence to say they are wrong, chaps? Renard Migrant (talk) 22:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I have never heard of it as an adjective, but the phrase "in a state of flux" is quite common. But flux is being used as a noun there. But "a flux situation" can be found on Google. Donnanz (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
The OED has flux as an obsolete adjective, meaning "that is in a state of flux; ever-changing, fluctuating, inconstant, variable", with last cite being from 1797. More recent usages in Google Books seem to be just attributive use of the noun, but I haven't scrutinised all examples. Dbfirs 11:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
All nouns, including proper nouns, can be used attributively. But they are still nouns. @Dbfirs we should check that the OED is right, no? Can you copy up the citations if you can see them? Renard Migrant (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
The OED's citations are as follows:
a1677 I. Barrow Of Contentm. (1685) 106 Considering..the flux nature of all things here.
1741 Mem. Martinus Scriblerus 44 in Pope Wks. II A Corporation..is..a flux body.
1768 W. Blackstone Comm. Laws Eng. III. xxi. 318 The record..was more serviceable..in a dead and immutable language than in any flux or living one.
1797 G. Staunton Authentic Acct. Embassy to China II. vii. 573 The form of those characters has not been so flux as the sound of words.
The first two are possibly attributive usage of the noun, but the last two seem to be adjectival use. This usage is obsolete, of course, but I expect we can find one more in Google Books, for example ... which is not so flux, mutable, and perishable, (according to them) as the grosser parts of the body from 1780 (The monthly review, or, literary journal - Volume 61 - Page 224). Dbfirs 10:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

This is predicative:

  • 1789, Thomas Cooper, Tracts, Ethical, Theological and Political[65]:
    ... for if the particles of the brain be so loose, and so flux as here represented, then is the soul united not to one, as every immaterialist hath hitherto supposed, ...

--Dan Polansky (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Both the 1789 and 1797 cites seem to clearly support an Adjective PoS. There are probably more. Perhaps searching for collocation of flux with common adverbs will generate more. DCDuring TALK 16:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
    The 1780 looks good too, which would be three. But I can't find more at Books with very, too, and so, nor could I find those citations. DCDuring TALK 16:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

One more predicative:

  • 1831, multiple authors, The Law of Reason[66]:
    Were the body so flux as here represented, then the soul is not united to one, but to an almost infinite number of bodies in succession.
    (Not sure whether this is truly independent of the Cooper quotation above: notice the very similar phrasing about representation and soul being (or not) united to one.)

--Dan Polansky (talk) 16:43, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Attributive flux modified by very (google books:"a very flux"):

  • 1820, author?, The British Review, and London Critical Journal[67]:
    This is one sort of reputation ; obviously of a very flux character : ...
  • 1961,Susan Yorke, Captain China[68]:
    He impressed her as a mere youth in a very flux state, and if a lord held a contrary notion to hers, how could she be right?
  • 2000, Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in America[69]:
    I have no “political ambitions,” per se, but I think we have a very flux situation in Colorado & ...

--Dan Polansky (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

tiny house[edit]

I had deleted this as SoP, but creator User:Lagoset said:

A tiny house, aka micro-house, is a 50 m2 house [70] . You can read more about the concept and movement, not only in English, but also in other languages, where is adopted with the English name (in Spanish, tried casa diminuta). [71]. More references: [72] [73] [74] []--Lagoset (talk) 12:38, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

My reply: "Found Small house movement. As far as I can tell, it doesn't have to be exactly 50 m2, nor "open to the public space" (whatever that means...?) so it's just a house that is tiny, even if they happen to be a trend at the moment." Perhaps others know more about this and want to weigh in with citations? Equinox 12:52, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Smells a bit spammy to me. Removed the link, if Lagoset reintroduces it I will strongly suspect a spam agenda. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
But it's spam for a "good cause". DCDuring TALK 22:28, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

selfie stick[edit]

Tagged by User:LoveLoveHat, not listed. Equinox 21:41, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

This word definitely seems to exist—see, for instance, the many selfie sticks for sale on Amazon. But I can only find two durably archived citations, which I've added to the entry. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
I've found another quotation in a social science journal—however, all three quotations are from late 2014, so they don't meet the requirement of spanning more than a year. Should we call it a hot word? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:36, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Seems appropriately labelled as hot word. DCDuring TALK 17:42, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
In my imagined to-be-eventually-written-down criteria for hot words, I actually explicitly exclude "inventions" — since I think these are more likely to be temporary fads than other neologisms. Keφr 17:54, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
There's a case for that, but this probably will either be deleted or no longer be hot by the time that gets voted on.
I found a cluster of cites from the website of various print newspapers and CNET that dates from late August 2014 and another from another one dated in 2013 from an Australian website that looks like it is web-only, but might not be. Do others share my estimation that none of these meet our "durably archived" criterion? If so, the "hot word" calendar begins with the 18 December 2014 Usenet citation. DCDuring TALK 19:09, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Just tag it with hot word. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:30, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Of course, but we need to check on it 15 months or so after the first cite (a book published December 2014) to confirm that it has become a lasting part of the language, unless you'd like us to flout that part of CFI. DCDuring TALK 23:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Like you said that's 12 months from now. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:33, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Less if there the possible cites above are valid. DCDuring TALK 23:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Found newspaper cites going back to March 2014. Seems that selfie sticks became popular in Asia around that time. Whereas they didn't become popular globally until late 2014. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 19:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


Only used in one book, as far as I can tell. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: That cannot undergo inflection, conjugation or declension.

Added in diff.

One quotation is in Citations:invariable; not sure how good it is. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:37, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Seems to be plenty here: [75]. Equinox 15:42, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I've added three more quotations to the citations page, for a total of four. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:22, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, we use it to mean this. Are we really the only ones to do so? I doubt it. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:46, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
It is amusing to note that the sole citation discussing the phenomenon in English is "Singular invariable nouns include mud and impatience, and plural invariable nouns include scissors and trousers. You cannot have *muds, *impatiences, *a scissor, or *a trouser." We have all of them and not by mistake. DCDuring TALK 23:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
You can have a trouser leg or trouser pocket, so trousers is variable when used as an attributive. I tend to use indeclinable for some Norwegian adjectives (and nouns), but I guess invariable could be used instead. Donnanz (talk) 10:47, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
RFV passed. Equinox 23:55, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Looks totally wrong to me - maybe something like "sluggish unemployment" (wtf?) ? SemperBlotto (talk) 16:33, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be two separate Google Books hits that relate to music. I'm having trouble working out what elements it's made up of, though. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Schlacken + -los + -ig + -keit. Google Books search for schlackenlos. Though Schlacke is according to Duden used mostly in technical senses, the derived terms seem to be used almost exclusively in high culture generally, not just music. Schlackenlosigkeit seems to me to be a rather loose translation of clinical perfection. It must be something like "freedom from imperfection" ("imperfectionlessness" !). DCDuring TALK 14:53, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
A calque would be slagless(y)ness, slag being a cognate with some of the same meaning as Schlacke. DCDuring TALK 15:18, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for this request! I'm not good in German, but just take a look at the context of this full word on Google Books. This seems to be the best option to translate this. I added this word just because no online dict has the translation. --Rezonansowy (talk) 20:18, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I await a native German speaker for this one. DCDuring TALK 04:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Schlacke is a mass consisting of the undesired substances that have been removed from the desired metal when liquifying ores. (Currently definition 2-4 of slag.) I looked over the first three pages of the Google Books link. It's an even measure of references to metallurgy and usages of the word as a paraphrase for "immaculate". The current definition in Wiktionary doesn't fit that usage, which stays closer to the metallurgic sense, in that the authors mean to say "without undesired elements". I'll change the entry in question. Korn (talk) 23:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
But what about the use in this document – http://www.icartists.co.uk/sites/default/files/Rudolf_Kempe_DVD_Booklet.pdf? It contains text in 4 languages, including German, where Schlackenlosigkeit is defined as clinical precision. My friend working on a musical biography asked me to find the translation for this word. And I found this PDF. The second reason, why this translation should be considered is that it fits perfect to whole translation of a musical biography. --Rezonansowy (talk) 12:18, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
There is also an article on German wiki containing this word – de:Die_Musik_des_Erich_Zann#Analyse. --Rezonansowy (talk) 12:18, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
The German article on The Music of Erich Zann also uses it to mean "free of undesired elements". These elements are mentioned in the next sentence to be crossreferences to his mythical cosmos and foreshadowings. As for the leaflet, well... The word is indeed used as a translation for "clinical precision", but German does have the term "klinische Präzision" as a common phrase as well, and judging from both the usages provided by Google Books and the non-figurative meaning of the word, I would not consider those two terms to be synonymous, even if in the right context either can work. Korn (talk) 13:57, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
@Rezonansowy: I think the translator's art is to convey the meaning of the original text as a whole, at least at the paragraph and sentence level, not necessarily at the level of each individual word. DCDuring TALK 15:47, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Could you also take a look at some results from DuckDuckGo? Does everything matches with free of undesired elements or something similar? --Rezonansowy (talk) 22:27, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm not the guy for that job. DCDuring TALK 22:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@DCDuring: So who is? Would anyone support progress of this request please? --Rezonansowy (talk) 21:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

You might try User:Matthias Buchmeier, who is a native German speaker. I've tried someone else. DCDuring TALK 23:13, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Although the word seems to be quite rare the Google hits that I get seem to fit our definitions. Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 20:06, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, after Korn's corrections the entry looks good. Some of the citations of sense 2 (e.g. "Schlackenlosigkeit und verdichtender Kürze") are so idiomatic / figurative that I can see why a translator would choose to render them non-literally. As DCDuring said, the translator was conveying the thrust of the text as a whole. - -sche (discuss) 21:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "An empty set". I think not. (Also why "an"? Assuming the axiom of extensionality, one of the least controversial ones, the empty set is unique.) Keφr 17:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

As per diff, can we get any input from User:Bequw? --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I've seen it as the null link in computer science.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:56, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
What is a null link? Keφr 02:55, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Another way of saying null pointer. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 03:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
I do recall seeing this in older texts. Now to dig up cites… that'll be harder.​—msh210 (talk) 08:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Incidentally, aren't we missing an ==Ancient Greek==/===Letter=== sense?​—msh210 (talk) 08:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Fwiw, [[w:empty set]] says "Other notations for the empty set include 'Λ'", citing John B. Conway, Functions of One Complex Variable, 2nd edition, page 12, and [[w:ru:пустое множество]] says "Реже пустое множество обозначают одним из следующих символов: 0 и Λ". (I haven't a copy of Conway.)​—msh210 (talk) 08:30, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Someone must have been drunk. Keφr 14:19, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

January 2015[edit]


"Vernacular for people". I think that's peep. A quick search for "a peop" only found things that were scannos for "a people". Renard Migrant (talk) 21:53, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Google Books has a very few matches for the plural "peops", but it's vanishingly rare compared with "peeps". Equinox 21:54, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


Ido, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:21, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I've added one quotation. A thorough search might be able to find more. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:15, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


Jèrriais, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:24, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


Jèrriais, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


Jèrriais, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:27, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


Ido, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


Delete the entry "ಹೊಉಗಾಙ್." There is literally no Internet attestation. —This unsigned comment was added by Princeps linguae (talkcontribs) at 23:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC).


Rfv-sense: One who photoshops celebrity faces onto nude photos.

Ungoliant (falai) 23:55, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding a durable source. This, however, does seem to support the claim. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 00:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: An aromantic or platonic attraction (by analogy with crush).

I've encountered this sense before "in the wild," so it's not something made up by the editor who added it to the entry, but I'm having trouble finding uses in CFI-compliant cites. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 03:19, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I've heard it before too, though not very often. I managed to find one quotation, which I've added to the one that was already in the entry. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 04:00, 3 January 2015 (UTC)



  1. A kind of bird called ruddy goose or ruddy shelduck Tadorna ferruginea.

The musical term comes from Sanskrit चक्रवाक (cakravāka), which can be literally translated as the rfved sense. The problem is that we're talking about usage in English, capitalized and with this spelling. I suspect the contributor threw in this sense because the musical and the duck sense are the same word in Sanskrit (and presumably in some descendent languages), so they figured they must be the same in English. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:29, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for "child murderer". I've only ever heard this used to mean "child molester", i.e. someone who sexually abuses children, but I'm not a native speaker of German and there could be senses I'm unaware of. Nevertheless, both Duden and German Wiktionary list only the "child molester" sense. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth: I would actually consider this term a very strict sum-of-parts with schänden (desecrate, violate, rape) with the meaning 'child rapist'. You wouldn't apply this term lightly to someone who hasn't conducted strongly sexual acts. Murder just happens to accompany that often. Korn (talk) 23:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)


Fear of the colour green. Only in word lists, I think. Equinox 22:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

in Google Books, there are three better meanings
  1. fear of chlorine and chlorine compounds
  2. fear of chloroform
    • 2003 Cholera, Chloroform, and the Science of Medicine : A Life of John Snow
      In 1850 and 1851, however, chlorophobia swept the country, as the agent intended for medical purposes was increasingly perceived as an alleged agent of crime, robbery, rape, and murder. An old man asleep in a hotel room was attacked with chloroform by a man hiding under his bed.
  3. (botany) intolerance to chlorine.
    • Am. J. Botany 25:380-5. Masaeva, M. 1936. Chlorophobia of plants. Bodank. u. Pflanzenernahr. 1:39-56 (C.A. 30, 4891)
The botanical meaning is, as far as I can see, traceable to that single paper, but is cited elsewhere.
--Catsidhe (verba, facta) 23:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
By 'better', you seem to mean 'attested at least once'. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


"Find me later" in text messaging. Can't find anything meaningful online. Perhaps a hoax explanation of the usual FML for "fuck my life"? Equinox 15:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


Ladino. Attested per WT:ATTEST? --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

One mention in snippet view here. It seems to be a word list with definitions and some etymological information. As far as I can tell, the Turkish seems to be a compound of baş (head) + üstüne (above or on top of), so the Spanish gloss of encima de la cabeza fits the literal meaning of the Turkish (I suspect the Turkish is equivalent as an expression to something like "yes sir!" or "you're the boss!", but I don't speak Turkish). This shows the word in use, but the semantics require some stretching to make it work- close enough to be plausible, though. Since Ladino is no doubt an LDL, the one mention should be sufficient if we accept it. As I said earlier, Ladino is tricky to attest, because the orthography is far from standardized, and because there's geographical variation, too. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:30, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Should it be a language with limited documentation? Renard Migrant (talk) 18:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
It is, since it's not on this list. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


Ladino. Attested per WT:ATTEST? --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

One use here. I'll let others judge whether it fits the definition (this is the alt-form, so see bashustuné). Chuck Entz (talk) 23:38, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for the article's following definitions: apply, smear, plaster and to put on. I couldn't find any sources for these definitions but I thought maybe one of our native Chinese editors might have more insight into the situation than I do. Bumm13 (talk) 05:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


Nothing obvious on Google book search. SemperBlotto (talk) 11:27, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Not relevant to attestation, but surely any sequence can be potentially turned into a palindrome by just repeating it in the reverse order on the end of what is already there. I suppose words (other than short ones) that can potentially becomes palindromes that are words might be interesting. Race comes to mind (racecar). Renard Migrant (talk) 22:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
What the entry creator seems to have meant is that you can form a palindrome by anagramming. Equinox 12:48, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense (Portuguese): cobra

I request evidence that this is used to refer specifically to the cobra, as opposed to any other snake. — Ungoliant (falai) 12:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't read Portuguese well enough to find actual uses for you, but sense 2 of this definition narrows it down to specifically the genus Naja. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
That’s a start. That definition claims it is European usage, but the Priberam dictionary, which focuses on European Portuguese, does not mention that narrow sense. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
So if cobra just means "snake" to Brazilians, what do you call cobras? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
naja. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


Spanish. — Ungoliant (falai) 12:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


Fear of cars. Only mentions, no uses. Equinox 20:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


Fear of eating or food. Mainly in word lists. Equinox 20:57, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Cited. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
RFV passed. Equinox 23:57, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Fear of floods. Only in word lists. The one citation given has poor grammar and appears to be a vanity-published poem by a subliterate writer. Equinox 20:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

"Th eother" and "learing" were typos introduced by an editor. They weren't found in the original text. It's "learning to read was thy great antlophobia." It's think it's a metaphor for finding learning to read as a young child to be overwhelming — fearing that you're going to be inundated by words. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Cited if you count the poem. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 01:34, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


Fear of growing old... only in word lists... you know the drill. Equinox 20:59, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Cited. There's an etymology on the Wikipedia article. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 00:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
That etymology is wrong. The actual Greek form used was γηράσκω (gēráskō, I grow old). The coiner obviously looked it up in a dictionary without knowing any of the grammar and just added phobia to the lemma form- with ungrammatical results. If Ancient Greek didn't have such a truly spectacular array of methods to create nouns from verbs, I might understand- but it does. This just shows how amateurish these phobia names often are ("fear of I grow old"? Yeesh!).Chuck Entz (talk) 02:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


Fear of flashes of light. Only in word lists. Equinox 21:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I've found two meanings, which I suspect may be the case for a few -phobias: there's the "fear of..." sense, which is what you'll find in the word lists, and there's also a biological "intolerance of..." sense. So selaphobia might be the fear of flashes, or, in ophthalmology, an intolerance to them. chlorophobia might be a fear of Chlorine (or of Chloroform, or simply of the colour green), or a botanic intolerance to Chlorine compounds.
More to the point, there is an issue which came up on my talk page in conversation with Equinox on this matter, and that's what would count for an attestation. I submit that these phobias come as a packet of concepts: the condition, the condition as an adjective, and the thing suffering the condition (-phobia, -phobic, -phobe). (And adverb -phobically?) Many of these terms are very specialised, and may turn up in scientific papers relatively rarely, such that we might have an insufficient number of attestations for any given form, and thus be forced to delete all three forms and with them the entire concept.
It's not quite the same as using examples of the genitive or plural to attest the lemma, but I don't think it's that far off. So I submit that for this sort of "package" of forms, it should be possible to use, eg., "selaphobic" and "selaphobe" to attest "selaphobia", and vice-versa. That is, any of the forms of the package work as attestation of the package. This could be the basis of a "See also" template for such things listing the various forms (so: autism/autistic/autist/autistically, or schizophrenia/schizophrenic/schizophrenic/schizophrenically, although that would be for cross-reference more than the need to aggregate attestations to make critical mass.)
--Catsidhe (verba, facta) 05:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
This does seem close to what we do with verbs (where I've noted a strong consensus to create the -s, -ing, -ed forms even if not all of them are attestable). I don't like the idea, though, since I prefer to treat each word/spelling as a separate item. Equinox 17:32, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't really consider inflections (plural forms and verb tenses) to be individual words, and thus I don't think they need to be independently cited, unless they're irregular in some way. But nouns, verbs, adjectives, or any other POS should be considered separate words, and thus I think they need to be independently cited. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
  • My position is that "selaphobic" does not attest "selaphobia"; even if "selaphobic" is attested, "selaphobia" can fail RFV and be deleted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
    • My fear is that neither form will make critical mass on its own (I've moved the cites you deleted to selaphobic, by the way), both will independently fail CFI, and thus the term in its entirety will be deleted. Even if they are aggregated it will be close, unless someone else has better luck finding another cite for each sense. But still, I see a situation where a word can clearly exist, if rarely, but be deleted through the technicality that one citation used person-first language or some such perfectly regular and predictable variation. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 12:31, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
      • Not sure what you mean by "person-first language"; one of the forms is a noun, the other is an adjective. They are different words, not just different inflected forms. Three quotations is already a very low threshold; I find it unwise to lower it by pooling morphologically related forms (like "carry", "carrier", and "carriage" or those mentioned by you above: autism/autistic/autist/autistically, schizophrenia/schizophrenic/schizophrenic/schizophrenically). In similar way, each -ness form should be attested on its own, rather than entered when the adjective from which the -ness form is formed is attested. Ditto for agent nouns: they should be attested on their own rather than created automatically when the verb is attested. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
        Person-first language is a fashion in disability circles to avoid using the word meaning "person-with-condition" ("autist", "paraplegic"), but instead explicitly saying "person with autism", "person with paraplegia", etc. (The idea is to explicitly state the person as most semantically important, not defining them by the condition.) Many autists, for example, find this ridiculous and faintly patronising, and see person-first language, for our condition at least, akin to saying "person with maleness". In this case you might find that a rare but real condition, with a real, if rare, word would fail attestation because the votes were split between the condition and the person-with-condition, even though they're all referring to the same thing. Which is why I split off the cites for selaphobic, rather than let them vanish completely. Surely someone has better access to ophthalmology papers? Or Epilepsy studies? --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:52, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


Fear of stairs/slopes. Only in word lists. The WP article only cites a word list. Equinox 21:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Cited. Most phobias are just barely citable. It can seem like they're not because finding cites requires combing through pages and pages of wordlists in the Google Books results. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
  • It is my position that the likes of "bathmophobia (fear of stairs)" and "bathmophobia, which is a fear of stairs or steep slopes" should not count for attestation. Or they should count to show the meaning, but should not count to the list of quotations in which the word is pressed to do a semantic job on its own. However, there is no consensus for this position, AFAIK; WT:CFI#Conveying meaning supports 'They raised the jib (a small sail forward of the mainsail) in order to get the most out of the light wind' as fine, which I don't. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:13, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


Google Books doesn't seem to have enough citations for any single sense. There is the biological "barophobic" (not adapted to high pressures). Equinox 21:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Found a third cite for the fear sense. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
What about fear of bars? Renard Migrant (talk) 23:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Did you hear the one about a man who didn't walk into a bar? -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 01:39, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


Another word-list phobia. Equinox 22:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you think it might be worthwhile to enact something to the effect that /phobia$/ entries may be deleted on sight unless properly cited? And an edit filter to explain it. Keφr 20:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Seems like a good idea to me. Also /philia$/ though that is a lesser problem AFAICT. DCDuring TALK 20:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Special:AbuseFilter/41. Please check it for errors and run it through any bureaucracy you feel is appropriate: BP, vote, whatever. Keφr 20:43, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Made of or with wood

Just attributive use of the noun? — Ungoliant (falai) 20:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to tell the difference between an uncountable noun and an incomparable adjective. None of the tests at Wiktionary:English adjectives seem to be capable of distinguishing between these two. So what kind of citation would (hypothetically) be able to demonstrate that "wood" is indeed an incomparable adjective as well as a noun? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Predicative use, i.e. you can say “this toy is wooden”, but can you say “this toy is wood”? — Ungoliant (falai) 20:49, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I'd still say that's use of the uncountable noun. Talk:woodland might provide a way forward; very wood and quite wood can't be interpreted as nominal uses, unless I'm missing something. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:56, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
That's true, but I wouldn't expect to find uses of an incomparable adjective with "quite" and "very". —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Yes, you can. [76] [77] [78] [79] But it's not completely obvious to me whether these are predicative uses of an adjective or an uncountable noun. But if you think they're good enough, I'll add them to the entry. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:59, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Dubious IMO. It feels like "this music is (genre)": more of a noun usage. Equinox 21:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
@Mr. Granger: I'd apply Occam's razor. If we have a noun entry for a word then there should be some unambiguous evidence for its adjectivity to support an Adjective PoS section. I can find three cites (1, 3 & 4) ["be|am|is|are|be|being|was|were more wood than" -"there is|was more wood than" here] at Google Books for the following collocation: "[be] more wood (than)". If upheld, that would let us keep the Adjective section. DCDuring TALK 22:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Saying "it's more wood than metal" doesn't make it an adjective, though. —CodeCat 22:21, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I tend to see "this table is wood" as an adjectival usage. Dictionaries having this adjectival sense at "wood" include AHD[80] and Merriam-Webster (entry 3)[81]. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
For the record, now as before, I consider this use of RFV less than fortunate, since for English there are no conclusive purely evidence-based criteria for adjectivity. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:34, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
The OED has only the obsolete adjective (our etymology 2) meaning mad. Are we being wooden about this? We do have steel as an adjective, and the OED doesn't, but why don't we have soap and cardboard as adjectives? (Later note: we do now for cardboard, with good cites. Thanks, Mr. Granger.) Dbfirs 17:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
@Dan Polansky: In most cases the evidence is extremely clear. Evidence is to be preferred to gum-flapping wherever possible. We can reduce the gum-flapping to evaluation and weighing of evidence, in this case, that of the judgment of lexicographers and the corpus data. It is very hard for me to take as meaningful an individual vote which often represents nothing more than an idiolect or a completely uninformed opinion. And articulate arguments based on agreed-to principles have become scarcer over time. DCDuring TALK 17:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I'd rather go by Merriam-Webster than OED. Merriam-Webster does have an adjective sense for "steel"[82]. We could have an adjective sense in cardboard, just like Merriam-Webster[83]; however, they may have the adjective sense to accompany the figurative adjective sense that they have. Again, since adjectivity is hard to detect based only on evidence, I discourage and oppose this use of RFV. Yes, there are cases where the evidence clearly supports adjectivity, but absence of such evidence requires judgment and discussion to determine the adjectivity, as per the existence of incomparable adjectives. Under the assumption that we take this RFV seriously, occurrences of "this table is wood" should count toward attestation as adjective, IMHO. This RFV should be closed as out-of-scope (my preferable closure), or as passed. We have no evidence to tell us whether "this table is wood" is an adjectival use, so we do have to use judgment or linguistic sense; hence the propriety of RFD for these kind of cases. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
RFV can be useful and appropriate in such cases, since the POS is part of the sense, and it seems perfectly acceptable to challenge whether there's usage for the sense as an adjective. The problem comes when the evidence is inconclusive: the presumption with rfd is for keeping unless the case is made for deletion, while with rfv it's for deletion unless the case (in the form of citations) is made for keeping. I have no problem with using rfv- unless someone tries to close it as failed when citations have been provided, but they're ambiguous.Chuck Entz (talk) 00:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
You ignored the incomparable adjectives objection, it seems. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)


rfv-sense: Vulgar slang for semen. Equinox 00:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The same definition appears under cream. Now which is the most vulgar spelling? Donnanz (talk) 00:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Thinking about it, neither word is vulgar. Should it be labelled as a figurative or literary sense? Donnanz (talk) 13:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Added "rfv-sense" at the top. (I search the RFV for "rfv-sense" to see which items I can close as failed, which is one source of the usefulness.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Rainbow Brite[edit]

Greeting card character. Passed a lukewarm RFD in 2009. Can it now be cited to meet WT:BRAND? Equinox 07:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)


RFV of the English section. - -sche (discuss) 04:16, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

This is the only use I could find: [84]. It’s present in some medical dictionaries, so it can be moved to Appendix:English dictionary-only terms if it fails. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:09, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


Really attested? google books:"selaphobic", google groups:"selaphobic", selaphobic at OneLook Dictionary Search. I'd even consider speedy RFV fail. Each sense needs three attesting quotations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:26, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for both senses: (1) an introvert who likes outdoorsy activities, and (2) a synonym for extrovert. The entry was created with sense (1) by an anon who later registered as User:‎Logophilic K; that sense was replaced by sense (2) by User:SemperBlotto. Logophilic K objected to that in the Tea room, so I've restored both senses and am RFVing both of them here, so we can find out how this word is actually used in durably archived sources. Incidentally, all I can find on b.g.c is this, which is short on context but appears to be sense (2). But I can't find 2 more attestations of it in that sense. As far as I can tell, all other b.g.c hits of "outrovert", "outroverts", and "outroverted" are scannos for the corresponding forms of controvert. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:37, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I've added two citations for the "extrovert" sense. Both appear to be written by non-native English speakers. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:05, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
I think it's a joke, but it might coincidentally turn out to be attested. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:29, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


Allegedly the Euler–Mascheroni constant, for which the usual symbol is γ. Sense originally added by Visviva; perhaps he knows more. Keφr 22:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


Equinox 01:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Apparently related to goropism. Mentioned here and a few other texts. I have yet to find a use as opposed to a mention in English. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 02:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

God's House[edit]

'God's house' is obviously very prevalent in a Christian sense, and its Arabic form meaning Kaaba as well, but I am unsure about this capitalised form having an idiomatic meaning of 'the Kaaba' in English. I looked and couldn't see it using Google Books. Kaixinguo (talk) 16:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be an entry for God's house. Kaixinguo (talk) 17:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


Ido for moraine. I can't find anything, but there's a lot of interference from other languages. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:14, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


Galician. Monoteísta is both the masculine and the feminine. — Ungoliant (falai) 04:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)


Same thing. — Ungoliant (falai) 04:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "hairy and poisonous caterpillar". is a simplified form of , which are hardly ever used in Korean, unless it's also an alternative Chinese form with this sense. Note that and have different Korean readings as well - (ho) and (ja). @Wyang, TAKASUGI Shinji:, pls check/comment. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Apart from being the simplified form of 蠔, 蚝 is also a traditional character, pronounced , meaning "hairy caterpillars".
cì - ci3 - 蚝/蚝 - "hairy caterpillars" - 자
háo - hou4 - 蠔/蚝 - "oyster" - 호. Wyang (talk) 06:28, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
@Wyang: great job, thank you. I didn't check other dictionaries, sorry. Do you mind checking the Korean entry, please? I should have RFT'ed, not RFV'ed it, no need for citations, I think. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Asperger's syndromes[edit]

Asperger syndromes[edit]

RFV of the plural forms. I think "Asperger('s) syndrome" may be uncountable, like many disease and disorder names. (I was going to use "cholera" as a specific example but "the choleras" seems to be attested.) All the hits I see on google books:"Asperger's syndromes" are of combinations like "criteria for the autistic or Asperger's syndromes" (="criteria for the autistic syndrome or for Asperger's syndrome"), "Kanner's and Asperger's syndromes", etc. The exception is a book called The Semiotic Web, which seem to use "Asperger's syndrome" as a count noun meaning "person with AS". - -sche (discuss) 08:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Hans Asperger only had one syndrome named after him, so I would agree that "Asperger's syndrome" is, as a unique thing, uncountable. Unless you were talking about different experiences of the syndrome as "Asperger's syndromes", as you might talk of "two Englands", but I can't see any evidence that anyone has ever done that. All the attestations I could see are of the "list of syndromes" sort.
I concur that The Semiotic Web uses "Asperger's syndromes" to mean "aspies". It also appears to be unique in this. It's certainly not a usage I'm familiar with (as an aspie myself).
--Catsidhe (verba, facta) 09:12, 12 January 2015 (UTC)


I found only one actually use in BGC, and a lot of mentions. My opinion is that cites like "they divided them into the following groups: aletophytes, mesophytes, ..." are mentions, but if the community thinks they are uses, this can probably be cited. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I've added three quotations, though the first one might be borderline. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:41, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Nice find on the third one (I forgot to check Scholar). As for the first, I saw it and reckoned it to be a mention, but I'd be curious to see what others think. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:48, 13 January 2015 (UTC)


"The art of packing something." How would this be used? "She's very good at package"?! Equinox 00:57, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

OED does have this sense with quotations; though the sense is listed now as "historical." —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 01:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I've now added some citations. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 01:40, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I've added another citation, for a total of three. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 02:00, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
MW Online has it and shows it as archaic; MW 1913 had it without restriction. Century 1911 did not have it. How was that pronounced, I wonder? DCDuring TALK 02:02, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Art or act? Renard Migrant (talk) 16:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
The citations strike me as uncountable. The definitions that others have are more or less "the act or process of packing", which could be both countable and uncountable, but is probably uncountable. DCDuring TALK 18:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
@DCDuring: re pronunciation: according to 1906/1907 New American Encyclopedic Dictionary, which gives "the act of packing goods or wares" (without any indication of datedness) as the first of three senses of package (the others being "a pack" and "a charge made for packing goods"), it's pronounced păck'-age (age as ɪġ). Based on how they notate pack (păck) and scavage scăv'-age (age as ɪġ), that seems to equate to IPA(key): /ˈpæk.ɪdʒ/. - -sche (discuss) 19:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll see if I can add that dictionary to my list of favorites. The "art" in the definition made me wonder whether it had a French-derived pronunciation, like IPA(key): /ˈpæk.ɑʒ/. DCDuring TALK 19:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
(This is straying from the subject of whether or not this is attested, but) according to the 1914 Century, this is the original sense — that dictionary gives the etymology as "Old French pacquage (the act of packing)", which contradicts our etymology. Renard, can you shed any light on whether Old French had such a term? - -sche (discuss) 19:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Btw, the New American Encyclopedic Dictionary mentioned above derives the term from English pack (verb) + -age. - -sche (discuss) 19:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
But they could just be allowing an ahistorical, morphological approach to usurp a proper etymology, as happens sometimes. DCDuring TALK 19:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Our etymology is suspiciously close to that at “package” in Douglas Harper, Online Etymology Dictionary (2001).. DCDuring TALK 19:57, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
The OED also says pack + -age, and continues "Compare post-classical Latin paccagium (1299, c1335 in British sources), Middle French, French pacquage (1583, rare)". The first sense is "The action of packing goods, etc.; spec. (now hist.) the privilege of overseeing the packing of certain categories of cloth or other goods". Dbfirs 21:26, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Godefroy has a definition and a single 1583 citation, which supports the OED. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Godefroy dictionary is the source of the OED etymology. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
You could be right there, though the earliest cite in the OED is from 1510 (State Papers Henry VIII) before the first recorded use of the rare French pacquage. Dbfirs 10:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
RFV-passed. - -sche (discuss) 23:26, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


This doesn't actually seem to be attested; the usual term seems to be octofoil. If this fails RFV, remember to fix all the pages that link to it (presumably to make them link to octofoil instead). - -sche (discuss) 06:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC)



  1. (zoology) Any member of the Achaemenidae.

This is one of a huge number of entries generated by User:Equinox based on the assumption that anything with the ending in -idae refers to a taxonomic family in the animal kingdom, which means it has a corresponding noun ending in -id that refers to a member of that family. Mostly, that's true, but there are exceptions: first of all, botanical names for subclasses also end in -idae, and then there are cases like this one, where a Latin- or Greek-derived term uses the plural from the original language (the w:Achaemenidae were a dynasty of ancient Persian rulers). I might have just speedied this one, but the history shows an earlier attempt at removing this information that was reverted, so I brought it here to be on the safe side: is this ever used to refer to members of a taxonomic, rather than a human, family? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The fact that Wikispecies has no mention of an Achaemenidae taxonomic family is quite damning... Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
WikiSpecies is far from complete. I'll look into it. DCDuring TALK 19:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't have a particularly complete source for insect taxonomy. I tried Biodiversity Heritage library, Index of Organism Names, Encyclopedia of Life, Catalog of Life, and ITIS. No joy on Achaemendidae as a taxon. There is a genus of bug Achaemenes in Cixiidae family. (BTW, note all the redlinks among the genera at species:Cixiidae, a common situation for insect taxa.) DCDuring TALK 20:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


I have no idea why I created this in 2010. I can find two citations fairly easily, but literally not one more. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:39, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

If you can find two citations fairly easily (citations written by modern French writers), you're more successful than me. Could you add them? I would be very interested. Lmaltier (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes they're at User talk:Renard Migrant#enfourmer, but yes I can write them up. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:21, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
The 1st one is not modern French (written in 1313). I don't know the date for the 2nd one, but I'm afraid it's the same problem. Lmaltier (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
(For ease of reference: citation 1, citation 2. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:43, 21 January 2015 (UTC))
If they're Old or Middle French, then no problem keeping since those are both LDLs. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

My point is only about the modern French section. I'm not a specialist (not at all), but the following links seem very conclusive, the 2nd citation is not modern French either, and the modern French section should be removed:

entierment, entièrement : https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=entierment%2Centi%C3%A8rement&year_start=1500&year_end=1700&corpus=19&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Centierment%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Centi%C3%A8rement%3B%2Cc0

Lmaltier (talk) 21:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)


This is the last definitionless Russian noun from Category:Russian entries needing definition. I don't know this word. (There's, of course an inflected form - genitive/accusative of коп (kop) (slang) - "ко́па", from English [[cop]], which makes searching complicated) If someone can find the definition, please add, otherwise it should be deleted. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, found this [85] --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:01, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
So it is in a dictionary. Now we only need attesting quotations in use as per WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:44, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
As a nominator, I'm withdrawing the request. I may add other etymologies/pronunciations later. Sorry for being a slack on this one :). Vahagn helped with this entry. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

here and there[edit]

Rfv-sense: "From time to time"

MWOnline has it. I've never heard it. Is it archaic, obsolete? Does the OED have it? DCDuring TALK 05:12, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

No, the OED has only the sense of scattered through space, not time. The equivalent expressions for time are now and then and now and again. I suppose the expression is sometimes used of time, by analogy, but I don't really think it means scattered through time. How do we distinguish between a meaning and a metaphor? Dbfirs 14:20, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
@Dbfirs: Thanks. I didn't think so, but I suspect you are right about metaphorical use. We don't have too much trouble with many mature metaphor-derived senses of nouns like head, but "live"-but-dying metaphors (or protologistic metaphor-based senses) are harder. It would be nice to have some actual instances of the purported temporal use that we could assess. OED was my best hope, but I'll try some other dictionaries that sometimes have citations. DCDuring TALK 14:34, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
e.g. 2009, John Bogard, The Message from the Cosmos (page 63): "Before we study his ideas, it is useful to note here again that extraterrestrial powers intervened here and there in his life, as early as his birth, then his baptism [] ". Equinox 15:13, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, after trawling through more than 200 Google Books, I found another example from 2011, R. E. Donald, Slow Curve on the Coquihalla (chapter 23): "Yep. Since nineteen sixty, or thereabouts. Missed a few years, here and there."
I suppose "at this and that point in space" can be used by analogy to mean "at this and that point in time", just as "now and again" is sometimes used for points in space. We are travellers through the four-dimensional manifold.
I wonder if "intermittently, occasionally" would be a better definition than "from time to time"? Dbfirs 16:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Weird. I'd consider it pretty common, as common as the spatial sense. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:37, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps you move at a different speed and so live on a different world line? :) Dbfirs 20:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I think it's often ambiguous. I find the 2009 cite ambiguous, though not the 2011 cite. In any event, the citations will be proof against a COPYVIO of MW Online, especially if we use them to support wording such as Dbfirs'. DCDuring TALK 19:03, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
It certainly can mean now and again in my idiolect. I would argue that in most cases, the meaning of spatially scattered and temporally scattered are so inextricably linked for that it must necessarily mean both. For instance in the sentence "The man showed up here and there," the appearances of the man must necessarily be spatially and temporally separated, which might have given rise to the figurative meaning of now and then. I also agree that it is very hard to construct sentences that are explicitly of one meaning or the other. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 20:57, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
But you can't say "The man showed up here and there at his kitchen window overlooking the road."
You would have to say "now and again" where the spatial context is restricted. Dbfirs 10:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I wouldn't say "The man showed up now and again at his kitchen window overlooking the road" but instead "Now and again, the man showed up now and again at his kitchen window overlooking the road" or "The man showed up at his kitchen window overlooking the road now and again." For some reason, that placement after the verb does not work for me. But in the other two locations, I could definitely say "Here and there, the man showed up at his kitchen window overlooking the road" and "The man showed up at his kitchen window overlooking the road here and there." This, however, may just be the topicalization or backing obscuring the apparent spatial contradiction. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 10:50, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I wonder how widely this is shared. Thank goodness we don't have to depend on individual reporting of their idiolect. DCDuring TALK 12:49, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Ive found one more cite, not sure about the year because the book seems to have been privately published by the author: Andre Maxwell Jacob, And Then There Was Life! (page 218): "She told Justina and Miles everything, pausing here and there trying to remember every little detail of her day."
If my sample of books is representative of the corpus, then usage for a timelike interval is less than 1% of usage for a spacelike interval. Dbfirs 21:09, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm not at all surprised by the rarity of unambiguously temporal cites for this particular term, where both main terms are principally spatial and alternatives like now and then are available. In my idiolect, I try to use the words that are more specific to the temporal realm. At least I think I do. It is fascinating how many basic time words, like prepositions (after, before) have a spatial etymology. DCDuring TALK 21:23, 16 January 2015 (UTC)


I can see mentions (dictionary-like definitions) but no actual usage on Google book search. Any takers? SemperBlotto (talk) 14:25, 16 January 2015 (UTC)


"(Ulster) An umbrella." Can't seem to find anything. Equinox 20:15, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

The word is in Green's Dictionary of Slang, which apparently has full citations for its entries. Does anyone have access to check it? Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
(There seems to be citation in this Texan(!) newspaper article but I can't see the whole thing, and the snippet does have OCR issues, so I wouldn't trust it unless someone can verify it: "He was Ii need of an umbrella, and on Christmas Bvi he arrived home from the office carrying a new umberstick.") Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

shocklaid ghoo[edit]

Manx, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)


Manx, by Embryomystic. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:13, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

continuous quality improvement[edit]

"quality assurance"

Only from the perspective of someone with the most remote awareness of the field, IMO. DCDuring TALK 21:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Bizbabble. Many wordy terms are invented by idiots who feel the need to invent rubbish to justify their overpaid, useless business positions, while useful, skilled people with e.g. computer tech skills are marginalised. These phrases never mean anything; they are just foul, vile back-slappery by bigmouths. Kill it with fire. Equinox 23:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Delete - nothing more than the sum of its parts. SemperBlotto (talk) 08:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Delete. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:03, 18 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Alternative form of America. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:48, 18 January 2015 (UTC)


While it's been misappropriated from time to time in eBay titles, it's still lacking attestations —umbreon126 04:19, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

lemon juice[edit]

"(nonstandard) Lemonade, a fruit juice made from lemons". 1. Lemonade isn't a fruit juice, is it? (whereas lemon juice is!) It's a drink with other ingredients. 2. I've never come across this at all; can it be cited? Equinox 14:07, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I've removed everything after and including the comma. Still need citing. This goes back to the very first edit of lemon juice. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
A few plausible citations:
"She sat me down in a chair on the stone stoop outside the diwan - the very same place - and brought me a glass of lemon juice."
"Spiritual pilgrims can console themselves for giving in to their appetites by making sure to buy fromage made by the monks of Cîteaux; pick up some good bread and sparkling lemon juice to go with the cheese and have a picnic on the way to the abbey."
"They wiped his face with a hot towel, gave him a tall glass of very refreshing lemon juice, and took his temperature, after making him comfortable on a nice clean soft bed inside the ambulance, which sped along its siren wailing."
"Soon after 6 P.M . we walked over to a small shop and had a glass of lemon juice and a banana, thus breaking the fast."
Most seem to refer to Arabic/Indian contexts. Smurrayinchester (talk) 15:51, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Seems to refer to the juice of a lemon, no? Is there any indication it's a fizzy, sugary drink? Renard Migrant (talk) 15:58, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
"Sparkling" and "tall glass" strike me as strong indications that it is not plain juice of a lemon that is being referred to. That would be two close-to-unambiguous (good enough for me) cites. DCDuring TALK 16:09, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I searched for things like "glass of lemon juice" and "refreshing lemon juice", on the grounds that I can't see anyone considering just a glass of freshly squeezed lemon juice as something to be drunk in any great quantity as a thirst quencher. A couple more plausible ones I found:
(India) Smita Dongre settled Vikram on the sofa and a young lady dressed in a bright salwar kameez placed ]https://books.google.de/books?id=cTZAAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT49&dq=%22sugary+lemon+juice%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6dG-VJayOaTCywPdwYHADg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22sugary%20lemon%20juice%22&f=false lemon juice] and biscuits on the table. [...] Vikram sipped sugary lemon juice.
(Botswana) Upon seating, guests are treated to a complimentary free glass of thirst quenching [86] lemon juice with ice.
(Vietnam) First she gave me a tall glass of lemon juice, followed by white noodles, egg rolls, cucumber salad, fish sauce, and meat rolled in rice bread.
(USA?) Thousands of years ago, the ancient Chinese drank lemon juice as an aid to health. Hot lemonade was such a popular drink that a song writer of the Yuan Dynasty wrote a "Lemon Hot Water Song."
If these look good, I'll write a few of them up properly tomorrow. Smurrayinchester (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Ah-ha, perhaps it's one of these words that are used differently in "outer circle" Englishes. Equinox 20:19, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Apparently there are more kinds of lemon than are dreamt of in our idiolects. There is something called sweet lemon juice which seems to be the juice of sweet lemons. Per WP: "Citrus limetta is a species of citrus. Common names for varieties of this species include sweet limetta, Mediterranean sweet lemon, sweet lemon, and sweet lime." Thus, our assumption that a tall glass of lemon juice was undrinkable unless it was made into a lemonade is wrong. And Citrus limetta is native to South Asia. DCDuring TALK 10:54, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
    Aha! And google books:"sweet lemon juice" confirms that that is a thing. And there's a book called Sweet Lemons (ISBN 1445202956, page 71) which speaks of a woman making "marinade, lemon sauce, lemon chutney, lemonade, lemon juice, lemon in custard, lemon meringue pie etc", where the title implies that the lemon juice in question is made from sweet lemons. And there are also books like The Citrus Cookbook (ISBN 155832822X) which say sweet lemons "make delicious lemonade, however, without the addition of sugar", implying that lemonade made from sweet lemons is called that ("lemonade") and not "lemon juice". - -sche (discuss) 17:33, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

tiníléítsoh łikizhígíí[edit]

Navajo for perentie. This, that and the other (talk) 05:04, 20 January 2015 (UTC)


[Placeholder for "bullshit" pun]

(Amusingly, when searching for this symbol with QQ, I get, among other things, a few calculus textbooks. Google Books API apparently considers this symbol equivalent to the string "DY". No such thing happens with regular b.g.c search, however.) Keφr 11:57, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

  • This strikes me as something more likely to be found on Usenet (Google Groups). How hard is it to enable QQ for such? QQ looks like a cool tool, though the documentation is not adequate for someone like me. It doesn't really SELL the tool. DCDuring TALK 16:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Next to impossible, unfortunately. Google Groups Search does not offer a public JSON API. As for documentation, feel free to write something better… Keφr 17:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
    • And I would agree if by "more likely" you meant "" instead of ">". Usenet has always struck me as somewhat traditionalist, so to speak — in this case, sticking to bare ASCII (or at the very least characters you can type on a keyboard without looking them up in a character table) unless there is a necessity to do otherwise. Keφr 17:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
      • If I understood QQ I could document it. Unfortunately the lack of documentation prevents me.
      • I thought that the image would be the kind of thing that someone would like to be able to produce as a comment on someone else's post. DCDuring TALK 11:52, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
        • There is little to be understood. Just enable it and try it out. Keφr 17:18, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
          • Not related to the discussion but the symbol has a smile (eyes and mouth) when viewed on an iPad but there's no smile on PC. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:37, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
            • Probably a matter of which font is used by each. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

double radio-source associated with a galactic nucleus[edit]

Any attestations meeting WT:ATTEST, including "use in permanently recorded media"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

  • It's used in published articles from paper science journals, so yes. -- 14:33, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
    • The end result of this effect is the perception of a symmetrically receding pair of sound sources, which, in the luminal world, is a good description of symmetric radio sources (Double Radio source Associated with Galactic Nucleus)
      DOI 10.1142/S0218271807010559 Are Radio Sources and Gamma Ray Bursts Luminal Booms? Manoj Thulasidas (2007) International Journal of Modern Physics D
    • Since nobody has yet proposed a name for this phenomenon, I shall do so now: we should call them DRAGNs, which is an acronym for 'Double Radio source Associated with Galactic Nucleus'.
      DOI 10.1007/3-540-57164-7_74 ; BIBCODE 1993LNP...421....1L ; DRAGNs J.P.Leahy (1993) Jets in Extragalactic Radio Sources, Proceedings of a Workshop Held at Ringberg Castle, Tegernsee, FRG, September 22-28, 1991.
      This is the coining event (in 1991), that coins the term ; the Proceedings are a published (on paper) compendium of the conference.
    • double radio source associated with a galactic nucleus
      pagee 282 (2007) C. R. Kitchin Galaxies in Turmoil Springer ISBN 9781846286711
    • 1 - Double Radio source Associated with Galactic Nucleus; see Leahy (1993)
      DOI 10.1111/j.1365-2966.2004.07685.x ; BIBCODE 2004MNRAS.350..865G ; A multiband study of Hercules A - I. ROSAT observations of the intracluster medium Gizani, Nectaria A. B.; Leahy, J. P. (2004) Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, Volume 350, Issue 3, pp. 865-878
It would be helpful if Wiktionary had the external reference templates that Wikipedia has for linking to DOIs, PMIDs, PMCIDs, BIBCODEs, since they link to information to find the published science papers and their journals. -- 15:00, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


Created by User:JohnC5, citations provided by User:I'm so meta even this acronym. --kc_kennylau (talk) 08:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Why is this here? This is a pretty standard Latin conjugation form. (By "standard" I mean "broadly accepted as a normal and predictable verb form"; it is definitely a poetic form, and not used in prose or speech.) I suspect not all Latin verb forms are attested, but if the main verb is attested, isn't it in the interests of making the dictionary as useful as possible to include all the standard verb form entries for that verb? This, that and the other (talk) 09:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
My real question was whether syncopated forms appear in fairly modern Latin writing. I'm all for the addition of Latin syncopated forms (a matter I intend to bring up soon), but I'm just curious about these modern uses of a pretty obscure Classical form. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 09:10, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, those citations are a bit puzzling. I would consider anyone writing in Latin in the 20th century who is not a classical scholar or an ecclesiastic writer to be quite pompous, so maybe these people were aiming for maximum pomposity by using poetic forms in their prose... This, that and the other (talk) 11:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
This passes RFV unless someone wishes to dispute the validity of the citations. - -sche (discuss) 04:48, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm ok with that. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 04:53, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
RFV-passed, then. - -sche (discuss) 04:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for Vietnamese reading "điến". This reading isn't found in either the Unihan database or at the Nom Foundation website. Bumm13 (talk) 13:51, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

@Bumm13: http://hvdic.thivien.net/word/%E6%8D%B5 --kc_kennylau (talk) 13:54, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau: Nice find! I'll have to check against that source for future referencing purposes. Bumm13 (talk) 14:00, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


RFV of all three English senses. I was trying to clean up this entry, but without seeing actual usages, it was a bit difficult. I did try searching for these terms in Google Books, but there was significant pollution from other languages, abbreviations, scannos, etc. This, that and the other (talk) 08:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

OED has it as alternative spelling for "cue, n1" ("Forms: ME cu, ME–16 q, 15 qu, kue, kewe, 15–16 que, 15– cue." [87]) and for "cue, n2" ("Forms: 15 kew, ku, quew, 15–16 q, quue, 15–17 que, 16 Q, qu, kue, 15– cue." [88]). Under the first one is the sense "†2. a. The sum of half a farthing, formerly denoted in College accounts by the letter q, originally for quadrans. Obs." with quote "1594 J. Lyly Mother Bombie iv. ii. sig. G2, [To Halfpenny] Rather praie there be no fall of monie, for thou wilt then go for a que." --Droigheann (talk) 02:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I can't find any evidence of the three senses which were RFVed, and I did try numerous phrases, e.g. "eight ques" (make up one penny), "two ques", "for a que" (the phrase in the cite Droigheann provides, above), and "que apiece".
I can, however, cite que, 'que and 'cue as uncommon, informal short forms of barbecue/barbeque.
- -sche (discuss) 04:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


The only good evidence of this verb I can find it here, which is 3rd conjugation and does not possess perfect forms. If this is the case, most of the forms will need to be removed and add the 3rd conjugation forms added. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 21:55, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I can't see your link, but Lewis & Short simply have “‘post-class., prodient, for prodibunt,’ Lact. 7, 16 fin.”, suggesting the only form of this verb that's actually attested is the third-person plural future. I don't think that warrants a whole entry with a bunch of imaginary forms. We should just have an entry for prōdient identifying it as a Late Latin alternative form of prōdībunt. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
That's strange about that link; http://www.latin-dictionary.net appears to be down, but if you search prodio on it when it's up, it will return it. It's cited source is Souter's A Glossary of Later Latin to 600 A.D, to which I do not have access. Regardless, this verb whole should be expunged in my opinion. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 22:38, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Also, we should be careful not remove forms of prodeo proper, if we choose to remove most prodio because I'm sure there is some overlap. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 22:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
All of the Google Books hits of "prodio" I looked at were scannos of proelio. "Prodis" gets a few Latin hits which aren't scannos (vide google books:"prodis"), e.g. Ovid's line "me mihi, perfide, prodis?", but prodis (although the entry does not currently admit it) is also an inflection of prodeo in addition to prodio, so it doesn't help us any. - -sche (discuss) 20:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


Allegedly Scottish Gaelic for "song". Found no evidence for the claim. --Droigheann (talk) 02:41, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Me neither. The page was started by someone whose whose use page describes him as "gd-0". There's an Old Irish verb canaid (to sing) and a Modern Irish verb form canaid (they sing), but apparently no Scottish Gaelic noun. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:06, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


The stress is completely wrong. Kaká, not káka - as a person who lived in Greece for years here and never heard anyone say this.

überraschendes Ereignis[edit]

überraschendes Erlebnis[edit]

Does this actually mean "serendipity", or does it just mean any surprising event. Google Books strongly suggests the latter. Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's SOP for "surprising event". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:02, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Yep, it looks like SOP to me. - -sche (discuss) 18:54, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


Japanese for "planeswalker". The German, French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish translations all failed RFV above, and this translation looks just as unattested. - -sche (discuss) 19:11, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


As above. - -sche (discuss) 19:12, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


As above. - -sche (discuss) 19:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


Searched on Google Books for "heard a doosh" (as in the given usage example) and "went doosh" but found nothing. Equinox 00:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The current sense is only citable as an interjection. As a noun, it’s an eye dialect/nonstandard form of douche. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:07, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


Seems to be Middle English only. If converted to a Middle English entry (or even if not), it needs to be cross-linked with quemeful (whether or not that word is also Middle English or modern English). - -sche (discuss) 03:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


The only modern English citation I can find is already in the entry. Wycliffe's Bible also uses the word, so if someone can find an edition that was printed after 1500, that may be a second citation. See also my comments about #quemful, above. - -sche (discuss) 03:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The OED has 5 citations of quemful ~ quemeful under the article queemful, though all of the citations are from Middle English and none of them use the spelling queemful. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 03:28, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Why would the year of the edition matter? https://archive.org/details/englishhexaplaex00schouoft is an 1841 edition of (among others) Wycliffe's, but it's still Middle English. I guess there's all sorts of respellings/marginal translations of Middle English into more modern forms, but there's not going to be any obviously correct line there.--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Simple post-1500 reprints of Wycliffe are still Middle English, yes. But sometimes modern English authors update Middle English works, comprehensively modernizing the spelling and grammatical forms and replacing some of the obsolete vocabulary, effectively "translating" the works into modern English. And modern English translations of works are citable, I think (see my comments on Talk:undeadliness). The link above looks like a simple reprint of Middle English, though. - -sche (discuss) 18:53, 30 January 2015 (UTC)




I can find only one citation of queemly, and one of quemely. All other hits are scannos of -quently across a line break (frequently, subsequently, etc). - -sche (discuss) 03:53, 30 January 2015 (UTC)



All of the citations I can find — I have added several to both entries — are Middle English, Scots, or a language that looks like a combination of the two ("I knaw hys canos har and lyard berd Of the wysast Roman kyng into the erd"). This is excluding one occurence in Totally Weird and Wonderful Words, because I think we've traditionally not considered other dictionaries' made-up usexes of terms to count as uses. - -sche (discuss) 09:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


I have looked at the Wikipedia article, but I'm a bit dubious. is Thoroughbred really a breed? I would only use the uncapitalised form. Donnanz (talk) 11:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


I managed to cite frore, but the only citation of this I can find is the one from Spenser which is already in the entry. All the other Google Books hits I looked through were scannos of from. - -sche (discuss) 20:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


All the hits I looked though (and I looked through quite a lot) were scannos of frozen, or, occasionally, Middle English ("a grete revere that was strongely froren over"), which the entry could be converted to if it isn't sufficiently attested in modern English. - -sche (discuss) 20:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Nonce words[edit]


Has anyone other than Joyce ever used this word? If not, it belongs in an appendix of nonce words... - -sche (discuss) 09:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


RFV-sense of the sense "A fleshy part of a fingertip or an act of touching." As above, has anyone other than Joyce used this? - -sche (discuss) 09:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The OED has this, marking it "rare" and with only one other cite, from 1984: W. Boyd Stars & Bars i. i. 11 "With the palp of a forefinger he squeezed moisture from his wiry blond eyebrows." Dbfirs 09:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


In addition to the citation from Pynchon, there's a citation from Blissful Bewilderment: Studies in the Fiction of Thomas Pynchon; it's debatable whether it's "independent" of Pynchon for CFI purposes, but even if it is independent, I couldn't find any other citations on Google Books, Groups, or Scholar, or on Issuu. - -sche (discuss) 09:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


I couldn't find anything on Google Books or Usenet besides the one citation in the entry. Google Scholar does have one paper by M Cornis-Pope, but it just quotes Pynchon: "To the Cartesian sense of spacial order (the “Ortholatry” and “Goniolatry” of classical surveying), Captain Shelby opposes a metamorphic “polygony” defined “by as many of these exhilarating Instrumental Sweeps, as possible”". - -sche (discuss) 09:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


Has this ever been used by anyone other than Joyce? If not, it belongs in an appendix for nonce words. - -sche (discuss) 09:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


Has this ever been used by anyone other than Joyce? If not, it belongs in an appendix for nonce words. - -sche (discuss) 09:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


Has this ever been used by anyone other than Joyce? If not, it belongs in an appendix for nonce words. - -sche (discuss) 09:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

lemon platt[edit]

Has this ever been used by anyone other than Joyce? If not, it belongs in an appendix for nonce words. Equinox 15:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Try as I might, I can't even find evidence that platt has ever been used by anyone other than Joyce to refer to food, let alone that lemon platt has. I did find some citations of Platt (Low German), some citations of "Platt's Chlorides" (a brand of disinfectant), and citations of platt as an obsolete spelling of plat = plot. - -sche (discuss) 17:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
The OED has plat (single t) meaning a dish of food (used by Byron in 1824 (Don Juan: Canto XV lxxiii. 41 ) " The simple olives,..Must I pass over..? I must, although a favourite ‘plat’ of mine." (and four other cites up to 1991) but it's just a borrowing from French. Dbfirs 20:26, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, it's hard to imagine that Joyce's "lemon platt" (apparently some kind of sweetshop candy) would use the word for a "plate" or prepared dish. Equinox 20:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. It's more likely to be a plaited confection. It should be lemon plait which we can cite, with Joyce's spelling just being a variant. I suggest that we replace the entry with "Alternative spelling of lemon plait" where I've copied Joyce's cite. Dbfirs 20:54, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, if there's only one citation of lemon platt, it doesn't even meet CFI as an alternative spelling, so it would need to use something like {{no entry|because=unattested|the entry '''[[lemon plait]]'''|lang=en}} (producing this). - -sche (discuss) 07:10, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "Tyrannosaurus rex". As the quotation accompanying the second sense shows, this word simply means tyrannosaur and not necessarily T. rex specifically, as opposed to other tyrannosaurs. However, I'm sending it to RFV and not RFD to give someone the chance to find citations that could unambiguously support this sense (I suspect there will be none). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


RFV of several senses. I managed to cite most of the senses of this, but there are a few that elude me:

  • "(transitive) To strike with the hand; slap."
  • "(online gaming) Abbreviation for platinum coins, a currency used in the massively multiplayer online game Ultima Online." If I'm not mistaken, this may need to pass WT:FICTION.
  • "(obsolete) The flat or broad side of a sword."
  • "(obsolete) Flatly; smoothly; evenly." This sense was supposedly used by Drant (Thomas Drant?), if anyone can find where.

Also, I didn't want to RFV it, but if anyone can find one more modern English citation of the adverb sense "plainly; flatly", that'd be great, since right now it only has two modern English citations. (Has the OED got any leads?) - -sche (discuss) 20:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The OED says that the Scottish National Dictionary records the sense "Bluntly, plainly; straightforwardly, directly" as still in use in Shetland in 1966. The most recent cite in the OED is from 1898 "J. Nicolson Aithstin' Hedder 50 Ta pit it aa doon plain an plat Wid hinder time ower mukkle.". Dbfirs 20:50, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I... I understood one of those words. I think. lol.
I'm pretty sure that means that it is, as you said, Scots and not English. :-p - -sche (discuss) 21:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have provided a translation. The OED doesn't recognise "Scots" as a separate language, of course, since it blends seamlessly with Scottish English, but I agree that for our purposes the sense is better categorised as Scots and as obsolete in modern English (last Chancery English cite is 1598). Dbfirs 21:35, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

ivory tower[edit]

I've requested a verification of the adjective sense. Surely this would just be an attributive noun? ---> Tooironic (talk) 21:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I've added four quotations with "very" and "most". —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks muchly. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:09, 3 February 2015 (UTC)


I managed to cite reif and rief (in both English and Scots), and reave and reive, but I can't find evidence of this except as an obsolete spelling of (coral) reef. Even The English Dialect Dictionary has no citations of this form, and Century, although it lemmatizes reaf, says "Usually in Sc. spelling reif, rief", which sounds suspiciously like Webster's use of "usually" to mean "always".
It's not the first entry I've found that seems to have more sense-lines than there are citations of it.
- -sche (discuss) 06:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

zamrzlý puberťák[edit]

Czech: adultescent.

I cannot attest this; google books:"zamrzlý puberťák". I can attest google books:"zastydlý puberťák", but I doubt it means "adultescent". --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. Never came across "zastydlý puberťák", but per Google it's more common than "zamrzlý". As for "adultescent", I went by the Oxford Dictionaries definition "A middle-aged person whose clothes, interests, and activities are typically associated with youth culture." and example sentence "A new name has even been coined for people who don't act their age: adultescents.", but on second thoughts it's true that the Czech term is always pejorative and can be used for anybody no longer in their teens, so probably the translation I used is inappropriate without a usage note or something. --Droigheann (talk) 01:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


Isn't it always AD&D, not ADD, for "accidental death and dismemberment?" WikiWinters (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Cited. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Comprehensively cited! THank you! This passes. - -sche (discuss) 07:01, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: conjuction. Can't think of any sentence where it would be used as one. --Droigheann (talk) 01:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Since it is instrumental case of co, it may have this sense - "whereby", "what with", dependent on the context. I would convert to instrumental singular of co. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
An example sentence would be something along the lines "Neuvěříte, čím si udělal radost!" or "S čím jsi to udělal?" (What did you do that with?). but I can't express myself well in Czech, sorry. Calling @Dan Polansky:, a native Czech speaker. BTW, @Droigheann:, you need a user page with a Babel table. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Is it a bad form not to have one? Ну что, готово ;-). --Droigheann (talk) 01:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
On a second thought, the Pronoun section already covers this. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV-sense of several senses:

  • "A man." There's one valid citation of gome under this sense; the other citations are all mentions, and arguably not even mentions of a modern English word but of a Middle or Old English word.
  • "lord; Lord; God."
  • "Heed; attention; notice; care."
  • "Blunted teeth on a saw." This has two citations, but one is a mention, and the other, which I just added, is iffy (mentiony).

I checked all the Google Books hits for "my goom", and the first 25 pages of hits for "the goom", and added all the useful citations I could find to the entry or the citations page. Most of the hits were scannos for groom, gloom, goods, or room, or of goomba(y) across a line-break. Most of the rest were of the senses "gum" and "alcohol" which I just added. Numerous books seem to contain uses of goom with the sense 'groom", until you realize that they contain more instances of groom than goom and that the instances of goom are typos. (To save people the trouble of citing them, here's a non-exhaustive list of books where goom occurs as a typo alongside groom: The Everything Jewish Wedding Book, Fifteenth Report to the Legislature of Vermont [...for] 1871, Annual Report of the Boston Registry, Rethinking in Marriage Institution, Yesterday and tomorrow in Ezaa and Izii's today, Kinship and power structure in rural Bangladesh, Where the green grasses are, The remember box, Philippine Journal of Linguistics.) There are also many hits of Goom as a first name and as a last name. - -sche (discuss) 03:41, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

In an effort to find the "heed" sense, I just tried "(took|take|taking|pay|paid|paying) no goom" and some other phrases that worked when I was citing gaum (heed), but they turned up nothing. - -sche (discuss) 06:58, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV of both senses. I looked through all the Google Books hits for "some gome" and "another gome", and several pages of the hits for plain "gome": most of the hits are scannos of game or Some, the rest were of gome as a word used in Ethiopia to mean something like ?hex?. - -sche (discuss) 03:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi Auntie[edit]

Hi Auntie=fuck you (Cantonese slang). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:41, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@Umbreon126: As a creator, could you provide citations to prove that this is Chinese Cantonese term, please? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you're mistaken: The edit history says that User:kc_kennylau created the page; I only clarified what the etymology said about "a Hong Kong forum" —umbreon126 06:17, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Opps, yes, thanks. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV-sense "alternative spelling of gom: silly, foolish person". I managed to cite the whaling senses of gam, and I managed to cite this sense in the spelling gom, but I can't find this sense in this spelling. - -sche (discuss) 06:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

maximum security[edit]

Perhaps he means maximum security prison? SemperBlotto (talk) 07:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

A single cite that I'm not very sure about:
2003, Ann Rule, Last Dance, Last Chance, Simon and Schuster (ISBN 9780743424066), page 462
Mr. Savage tells us he'll appeal, and appeal, and appeal. But you can be sure of one thing. A man in the maximum security on death row will never 'walk away' to prowl the countryside again.” The jury retired on Saturday evening to deliberate.
If not cited, I think this should become "Alternative form of maximum-security/minimum-security." Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
(By the way, there are few hits for "sent to maximum security", but these seem to refer to maximum security areas within a prison with several areas.) Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I think if the definition was right the hits would look more like "sent to a maximum security", of course not followed by "prison", "facility" etc. Siuenti (talk) 22:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
One of the many widespread defects of our English definitions are, 1., incorrect, incomplete, or missing indication of countability and uncountability on the inflection line, 2., missing or incorrect marking of countability and uncountability at the sense level for polysemic terms, and, 3., wording of definitions inconsistent with the indicated countability or uncountability. The definition in question at least has the third defect: the indefinite article is not consistent with uncountable on the inflection line. DCDuring TALK 23:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@Smurrayinchester: I found ten hits for "in|into|to maximum security [punctuation mark]" at COCA:
1 2011 SPOK NBC_Dateline After six years in maximum security , Glen Ake was nearly unrecognizable.
2 2002 NEWS USAToday brick prison walls passing by him are like scenes from his daydreams back in maximum security .
3 2002 NEWS Denver said he is ready to move from maximum to medium security. # While in maximum security , Glennie has been assaulted four times.
4 2002 NEWS Denver Glennie remains in maximum security ,
5 2000 FIC ScienceNews and I were unceremoniously shoved into soda cups and trundled back across the street into maximum security .
6 1996 NEWS WashPost receiving end, or made to spend a night at Lorton... in Maximum Security ... chained to a cell door... stark naked,
7 1994 SPOK CBS_Sixty So Joe Yandle was locked away in maximum security .
8 1991 NEWS AssocPress 66064 and his crew are ready with " the real deal " on life in maximum security .
9 1990 FIC Bk:Harvest Three years behind bars in maximum security !
10 1990 MAG WashMonth Younis is now serving 30 years in maximum security .
(I'm showing off COCA search capability.)
This indicates it is used without an article, possibly uncountable. Quote 3 suggests that it is not a set phrase. Quote 6 shows it being used as a proper noun in reference to a particular department or unit. Clearly maximum security is not a type of security in the usage here. In contrast under maximum security would indicate a type of security. I don't think it can be used after the same set of prepositions that security, in any sense, can. And etymologically it is clearly an ellipsis of phrases headed by prison, unit, detention, etc. Though I find it hard to believe that "it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means", the meaning being always transparent in context, I know of no instance where an item failed to be included for failing to meet that criterion. DCDuring TALK 00:02, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I have added and cited a noun section. I look forward to someone trying to cite this as a true adjective. DCDuring TALK 17:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I notice Random House has "maximum security" defined as an adjective, perhaps we can go with that as opposed to a noun! WritersCramp (talk) 00:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV-sense of several senses:

  • "Attention, understanding."
  • "To understand; distinguish; consider" and "to pay attention to; take note of; notice." — Note that I've found two citations that seem to use one of these senses, so if someone can find a thing citation, one of the senses (or an amalgamation of them) should pass.
  • "To fear."
  • "To handle improperly." — I've found one citation, of Swift, which is frequently parsed as using this sense, even though he uses it alongside mauming and is arguably just using nonsense words. (But if anyone finds two more citations of this sense, I won't quibble over the Swift citation.)

- -sche (discuss) 09:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I do find a couple instances of gaum as a noun in an Indian context, but not with this meaning. See Citations:gaum. - -sche (discuss) 19:58, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I've managed to cite the "understand" sense. - -sche (discuss) 07:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I've managed to cite the noun as "heed". - -sche (discuss) 09:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV-sense of the senses "axle grease" and "to daub with gorm (grease), or with anything sticky". I have comprehensively cited every sense of gorm, gaum and gawm I was able to find citations for. I did find gorm used as an alternative form of gaum (to smear), but I haven't been able to find it as a noun or with the meaning "daub with axle grease". OTOH, I've never heard either meaning, so perhaps someone who has will know how to find citations. - -sche (discuss) 19:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

nomenclate [edit]

Really? SemperBlotto (talk) 21:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Really, it seems. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough. SemperBlotto (talk) 13:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "The paddlefish." I cannot find uses, but filtering out the other senses may be the only obstacle. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:14, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

There are plenty of mentions: it seems to be US dialect, and is usually given as "duckbill cat" or "duckbill catfish". Equinox 00:08, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I will add an attested entry at duckbill cat. DCDuring TALK 02:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

dancing belt[edit]

Synonym for dance belt. Having trouble finding this. Equinox 13:37, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Me, too. Everything at google books:"a dancing belt" seems SOP, and/or refers to a thing worn by a woman. Sunset Marina initially looked like it had a use of this sense, but on closer inspection it too seems to say a woman is going to wear the belt, which makes it question whether it's using the sense in question. - -sche (discuss) 22:16, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Try googling "belly dancing belt", which can also be "belly dance belt". This definition is not shown under dance belt. Donnanz (talk) 11:47, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

números de Avogadro[edit]

Created by a bot, almost certainly in error (número de Avogadro shouldn't be countable; the countable equivalent is mol). Of the four deduped Google Books hits, the first is "Números de Avogadro y de Loschmidt", the second one appears to be a typo (it reads "Al peso de la masa de gas que ocupa los 22.400 centímetros cúbicos (a la temperatura y presión normales) se le denomina molécula—gramo, y al número N de moléculas del gas alli contendias se le designa con el nombre de “números de Avogadro”." - it doesn't make sense to me to say "The number of molecules is called "Avogadro's numbers""), the third talks about "los diez primeros números de Avogadro" which are presumably nothing to do with the physical Avogadro's number, and the last is Portuguese. Smurrayinchester (talk) 16:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)



  • "(archaic) Constantinople, the "New Rome"; the Byzantine Empire." Both citations are of "Romes", plural, as a designation for both cities at once. They are not citations where "Rome", singular, refers to Constantinople alone, and they should be moved to Romes. It's plausible there might be citations where "Rome" meant "Constantinople", though; e.g. perhaps there are books that say the peoples of Anatolia "sent tribute to Rome", where the context makes clear that Constantinople is meant.
  • "(obsolete) Moscow, the 'Third Rome'." Neither citation uses "Rome" to mean "Moscow", any more than me saying "my friend Ute is the new Pink Floyd" is me using "Pink Floyd" to mean "my friend Ute".

- -sche (discuss) 02:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV-sense "(UK, crime, slang, obsolete) Coldbath Fields Prison in London, closed in 1877." The two citations are of dictionaries/wordlists, not actual uses of the term. - -sche (discuss) 03:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I also question if "Cockney rhyming slang" is really the origin of the term; as I understand it, Cockney rhyming slang takes "snout", converts it to "salmon and trout", and then keeps only the first part, "salmon". This looks more like people called Coldbath "Bastille" and then shortened "Bastille" to keep only the last part, which is just shortening, not rhyming slang. - -sche (discuss) 03:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
A few citations - all of these have glosses added by editors, but seem to be quoting actual criminals of the era (and support the Bastille hypothesis):
1862, The Criminal, Havelock Ellis, page 162:
I was lugged before the beak, who gave me six doss in the steel. [...] six months in the Bastille (the old House of Corrections), Coldbath Fields.
1866, George Augustus Sala, Edmund Hodgson Yates, Temple Bar, volume 16, page 507:
He said he had been in the “steel” (Coldbath Fields Prison) eight times.
1879, Macmillan's Magazine, volume 40, page 502:
This time I got two moon for assaulting the reelers when canon. For this I went to the Steel (Bastile — Coldbath Fields Prison), having a new suit of clobber on me and about fifty blow in my brigh (pocket).
Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Impressive finds! "Steel" had too many senses, and so searches produced too much chaff, for me to find anything useful. I've added your citations to the page and reformatted the references as, well, references. - -sche (discuss) 22:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


Has this ever been productive in English with the supposed definition "grain-like"? I can only find one word where it has anything to do with grain - mitochondrion - and that seems to be simply an invented Greek word ("thread granule") rather than an example of suffixing. Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV of several senses which seem to have been copied or paraphrased from another dictionary, complete with that dictionary's "citations", which are just mentions in other dictionaries and wordlists and not, in most cases, actual uses.

  • (UK) The ruffe, a small Eurasian freshwater fish (Gymnocephalus cernua); others of its genus.
  • (UK regional, obsolete) The grain weevil (Sitophilus granarius).
  • (UK regional) The Atlantic puffin (Fratercula arctica).
  • (US regional) The painted bunting (Passerina ciris).
  • (UK regional) The bullfinch (Pyrrhula pyrrhula).
  • (UK regional, obsolete) The red-backed shrike (Lanius collurio).

The English Dialect Dictionary, which sometimes has pointers to actual uses of words like this, specifies that the "weevil" sense was unknown to its correspondents, and although it has the "bullfinch", "shrike" and "puffin" senses, it offers no leads to actual uses. I tried various searches, like "catch popes" (compare "catch fish"), "red popes" ("red-back shrikes"), popes + weevils, popes + puffins, etc, and didn't see anything relevant. - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm also a bit sceptical that the "Guy Fawkes day" sense is really, as currently labelled, US. - -sche (discuss) 21:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I know I'm RFVing a lot of things, but I've cited even more senses over the past few days than I've RFVed. (Vide gam, gom, gaum/gorm/goam/gawm, gaumy/gormy, gauming/gorming/gawming, gaumless/gormless/gawmless, gaumlessness/gormlessness, etc. and undermeal, flockmeal and mommick.) - -sche (discuss) 22:30, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Right! Let's see what we can do.
1792, William Augustus Osbaldiston, The British Sportsman, Or, Nobleman, Gentleman and Farmer's Dictionary of Recreation and Amusement, page 176:
Byfleet-river, wherein are very large pikes, jack, and tench ; perch, of eighteen inches long ; good carp, large flounders, bream, roach, dace, gudgeons, popes, large chub, and eels.
1862, Francis T. Buckland, Curiosities of Natural History, page 230:
It resembles the perch (unfortunately for itself) in having a very long and prickly fin on its back, advantage of which is taken by the boys about Windsor, who are very fond of 'plugging a pope.' This operation consists in fixing a bung in the sharp spines on the poor pope's back fin, and then throwing him into the water.
1865 January 14, Astley H. Baldwin, "Small Fry" in Once a Week, page 105:
Popes are caught whilst gudgeon-fishing with the red worm, but they are sometimes a great nuisance to the perch-fisher, as they take the minnow.
puffin (no direct citations, but three indirect ones - 1822 shows that it was a common enough word to be crystalized in a toponym, and a check of the OS map shows that the name "Pope's Hole" is official and still current, so it must have had some serious use):
1822, George Woodley, A view of the present state of the Scilly Islands, page 264-5:
"About a hundred yards further North" says Troutbeck, "is a 'subterraneous' cavern called the Pope's Hole, about fifty fathoms under the ground, into which the sea flows, so called from a sort of bird which roosts in it by night, about ninety feet high above the level of the water."!! [...] It derives its name from its being a place of shelter to some puffins, vulgo "popes".
1864, Charles Issac Elton, Norway: The Road and the Fell, page 94:
The Norsemen catch great numbers of these popes, parrots, or lunder, as they are variously named, and train dogs to go into the holes where the puffin has its nest, lying in it with feet in the air.
1874, J. Van Voorst, Zoologist: A Monthly Journal of Natural History, page 3904:
I was informed by a fisherman that there were now hundreds of gannets in the channel off Plymouth, and that he had also met with some puffins (which he called "popes") [Technically, a mention, but it's quoting speech]
Also lots of mentions such as this and this.
painted bunting (probably mistranslations of the French name, pape):
1771, M. Bossu, Travels Through that Part of North America Formerly Called Louisiana, Volume 1, page 371:
The Pope is of a bright blue round the head ; on the throat it is of a fine red, and on the back of a gold green colour, it sings very finely and is the size of a canary bird.
1806, Berquin-Duvallon, Travels in Louisiana and the Floridas, in the Year, 1802: Giving a Correct Picture of Those Countries, page 122:
The birds [of Louisiana] are the partridge, cardinal and pope, and a species of mocking bird, called the nightingale.
1821 Édouard de Montulé, A Voyage to North America, and the West Indies in 1817, page 54:
[...] some others, such as the crow, the heron, and the wild goose, which are found in Europe, I also observed ; but the most beautiful are the pope bird, whose head seems bound with the most bright azure blue, and the cardinal, being entirely of dazzling scarlet [...]
Dominican cardinal (aka crestless cardinal or red-cowled cardinal):
1864 August 6, The Journal of Horticulture, Cottage Gardener, and Country Gentleman, page 100:
From the sketch of the bird which you have sent us, there is no doubt about its being the Pope Grosbeak, which is a species of the Cardinal, but not the crested one.
1883, William Thomas Greene, The amateur's aviary of foreign birds: or, How to keep and breed foreign birds, page 96:
The Pope is a native of Brazil, and the female (it is altogether incongrouous to think of a lady pontiff) exactly resembles her mate
1895, A. A. Thom, "Dominican cardinals" in The Avicultural Magazine, page 128:
SIR,—I should be glad to learn how to treat Pope birds (Crestless Cardinals) when nesting.
1898, The Avicultural Magazine, Volume 4, page 87:
Besides the Bicheno's Finches in this Class, the judge disqualified, in other Classes, a pair of Magpie Mannikins and a pair of Popes. These entries were presumably all disqualified on the ground that they were not true pairs: they are all birds in which the outward differences between the sexes (if there be any outward difference at all) are of an extremely slight and uncertain nature
1956, Foreign birds for cage and aviary, Volume 4, page 20:
The wisest plan is always to keep the Pope Cardinal in an aviary, and to have only one pair to each aviary.
No luck yet on bullfinches, shrikes or weevils. Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Citing obsolete dialect is rather hard, but one cite for bullfinch can be found in a Dorset parish church's records, which records:
payment of one shilling per dozen for "popes, pops, or poops' heads."
which as Notes & Queries writers point out was almost certainly referring to bullfinches. Smurrayinchester (talk) 13:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
The "ruffe" and "bunting" citations are great! The "puffin" citations are iffy. The "weevil" and "bullfinch" citations in the entry continue to be mentions, but your Dorset church record looks like a good citation of it — though it's amusing they bothered to write out all three spellings. Great job finding that "cardinal" sense! Ha, it's as if the bird got a promotion: it was a cardinal, now it's a pope. - -sche (discuss) 01:31, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Two more citations for pope as puffin, slightly better than the ones we have above. I personally think the sense is cited now (these two, plus the "Pope's Hole" quote and possibly the quote of fisherman show actual use).
1759, "Linnæus's Systema Naturæ", The Gentleman's Magazine, page 456:
Alca genus; 6 species, including the razorbill, the penguin, the pope, and others.
1773, John Hill, "Alca", A General Natural History, volume 3, page 442:
The Pope: This is a very singular bird; it is about the size of our widgeon, or somewhat larger, but is not quite so large as the duck: the head is large and rounded; the eyes are small, and stand forward on the head, and lower down than in the generality of birds [...]
No luck on the other senses - having checked the OED, they cite the same dictionaries we do. Incidentally, it looks like the "Pope's Day" sense is indeed American - the OED gives two citations, one from the diary of John Adams and one from the Boston Chronicle. Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


Tagged in 2013 and seemingly never listed. - -sche (discuss) 22:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

sprain one's ankle[edit]

Supposedly means "to be pregnant". Tagged quite a while ago but not listed. - -sche (discuss) 23:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


The verb section was tagged RFV but never listed. Also: it has no definition. So...yeah. - -sche (discuss) 23:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe the definition of the verb is "to gill", which is, to gut and clean a fish. According to Den Danske Ordbok, anyway. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 23:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Cited. (Remember to remove the tag from the entry before archiving this discussion.) - -sche (discuss) 05:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV-sense: "(UK, slang) The state of sickness." tagged but apparently never listed. - -sche (discuss) 23:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I've cited it. Seems to be mostly drug slang. Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The citations look good. I've revised the definition a bit; defined as "the state" I would have thought to look for it with the definite article, whereas the citations of "a whitey" suggest it means something more like "a period (bout) of sickness". - -sche (discuss) 05:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


Allegedly a Turkish word for pearl. Tagged but never listed. Has some things which are claimed to be Turkish citations using this word in this sense, but in the past it's been noticed that (most but not all!) of the time, such citations are actually Azeri or Turkmen. - -sche (discuss) 23:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV of adjective sense 3. (Other senses may be RFVed later.) As far as I can tell, it would be a departure from previous practice to have sense-lines (especially ones consisting of more than {{only in}}) for parts of the proper names of works, even if we weren't talking about transliterations. For example, we don't and shouldn't have an English entry for Mein (or mein), or Soyuz or soyuz, based on instances of people mentioning Mein Kampf and Soyuz nerushimy in English; we don't even have an English (or German/Russian) entry for either full title. Hence, the one citation currently under the RFVed sense, if it is using any English term at all, seems to be using Mahā Bhārata, not mahā. But it is italicized as if it were not English at all, but only a transliteration of the Sanskrit title — compare google books:Zhonghua renmin gongheguo xianfa — so seems useful it see if it can be cited in English at all before beginning an RFD. (Otherwise, someone at RFD would say "shouldn't this be at RFV first to see if it's attested?") - -sche (discuss) 21:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Our current entry for Mahā Bhārata defines the term as "Alternative spelling of Mahabharata", and our entry for Mahabharata defines the term as "A Sanskrit epic concerning some text of Bhagavad Gita plus elaborations on theology and morality". None of that provides the reader with any guidance when they come across "mahā" and decide to look it up here. bd2412 T 22:26, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
  • [89] - There are 3 cites for the specified definition, take it to RFD if you dispute inclusion in the first place. It's pointless to discuss the far-fetched and disanalogous parallels with mein and soyuz here. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
    On the contrary, Soyuz in particularly is directly analogous. - -sche (discuss) 22:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
    soyuz is a standalone word so it can't be analogous. soyuz also doesn't appear in hundreds of compounds (or phrases), and it's not a result of people mistakenly spelling it on its own just because it's phonetically a single word, as is the case with maha. Fundamentally there is no difference between it and ordinary English affixes, and the opposition seems to stem from the fact that the former only admits Sanskrit basewords. Since we have entries on English affixes with as little as 2-3 derivations, with maha having hundreds it surely deserves its entry. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 01:04, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Ivan, the two citations you recently added were both illustrations of the term [[maha]], not [[mahā]], and I have therefore removed them. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:06, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
      • Ivan, I see that you've just reverted my removal. Rather than edit warring, I rebut below:
  1. I understand that [[maha]] and [[mahā]] are related. However, citations showing use of [[maha]] do not suffice as evidence for [[mahā]] as an English term.
  2. Both of your added citations also don't show use of [[mahā]] as an individual term, but only as part of larger compounds. We already have an entry for maharaja, and I would argue that maha raja (regardless of capitalization) is an alternate form of maharaja and not an example of [[mahā]] as an independent English term.
  3. Your usage note still makes no real sense, and is incorrect in characterizing Sanskrit [[mahā]] as having no independent meaning.
Please remove the incorrect citations and incorrect usage note. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:51, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
  1. It's an alternative form, and citations are valid for the normalized spelling as well. It's the same word.
  2. It's an independent term by the virtue of being demarcated with whitespace. It how the notion of "word" is defined.
  3. mahā is not a lexical word in Sanskrit and has no meaning. The usage note is correct, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it makes no sense. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
  • On the first point, I was under the impression that separate spellings are treated here on the EN WT as separate entries. As such, [[maha]] and [[mahā]] are separate. Could any third party chime in with clarification?
  • On the second point, I'm not arguing that [[maha]] is not a word. I'm arguing that [[maha]] as illustrated by the compound term [[maha raja]], as an alternate form of [[maharaja]], is not an independent usage of [[maha]] as an English word.
  • Per your last point, care to explain the महा (mahā) entry, then? inter- is not a lexical word in English either, but it definitely has a meaning. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
A 1779 citation for maha encompasses both modern maha and mahā, since at that time there was no way to make a typographic distinction between the the two. Today when you write mahā it's a choice. So a 1779 citation for maha is a proper citation for mahā as well.
What is an "independent word" ? The definition line for the third sense states that it carries no inherent meaning. It can't be classified as an affix either, so it's best left as an adjective.
I suggest that you read the entry on महा (mahā). It says that it doesn't mean anything. That word never occurs in that form on its own so that entry can be safely deleted. Sanskrit has formalized rules of compounding so any word can have a bunch of such "combining forms". inter- doesn't have a meaning either. It modified the meaning of the baseword, but it has no meaning of its own. That's why all of the affixes have non-gloss definitions. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 02:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
If महा (mahā) doesn't mean anything, then perhaps mahā as used in at least some English texts appears to have been given a meaning by those writers beyond its Sanskrit origins. bd2412 T 04:21, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
As it is explained in the usage notes, it's usage as a separate word in English in the third sense is due to the fact that it's phonetically a separate word. In Sanskrit compounds as a rule have a single accent. Modern usage dictates a single-word spelling for all Sanskrit compounds. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:14, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I already read the महा (mahā) entry. The महा (mahā) entry does not say that it has no meaning. The lack of a gloss on the definition line is not a positive statement that the term has no definition. Clicking through to महत् (mahat) further explains that महा (mahā) is the combining form of महत् (mahat), i.e. it has the same definition(s) as महत् (mahat), albeit a different lexical role.
If inter- has no meaning, why does it have a definition line?
Ivan, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling me, or if you're bending the logic of your argument, or if you and I just have profoundly different understandings of Wiktionary. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
... or perhaps I'm just really not understanding you? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:00, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
The entry says that it's a combining form of another word, it doesn't provide any definition. On Wiktionary only words without meanings lack definitions, excepting alt-form redirects and non-lemma entries. महा never occurs on its own (in terms of "separated with whitespace in writing", or "pronounced separately when speaking") in that form. It's not a word in Sanskrit. Sanskrit compounding forms are not like inter- and other affixes in English and other languages - basically every single word can have a bunch of these forms depending on word sandhi.
The definition line of inter- is now encapsulated with {{n-g}}. Even in this form it's deficient because inter- does not mean among, between, amid, during, since these all are not lexical words either. It should be something along "Prefix used to form nouns and adjectives indicating this-and-that type of relationship, corresponding to the usage of prepositions among, between, amid etc.".
Now suppose that all of those derivations with inter- where overwhelmingly written separately, as inter governmental or inter state, until relatively recently (C20), and admitted only stems of Latin origin. Would it be justifiable to have a separate entry on inter? This is such a case. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:27, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Eirikr, you are correct that different spellings are treated as different entries, and citations of maha do not verify mahā. Iff they are not invalidated by other factors such as italics, or being mentions rather than uses, etc, citations of maha verify maha. Macrons have been in use for hundreds of years, so Ivan, your assertion that there was historically no way to make a typographic distinction between maha and mahā is simply mistaken. I agree with Eirikr's comments of 00:51, 7 February 2015, including that maha raja is an alternative form of maharaja, not a use of *maha#English + *raja#English. (Does anyone other than Ivan feel otherwise?) - -sche (discuss) 03:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
A reader coming across the phrase maha raja is likely to see these as two separate words, and will (correctly) conclude that "maha" and "raja" each contribute some different meaning to the whole phrase. This is particularly so if the same reader also sees phrases like maha bharata or maha yogi. Of course, the same applies for examples of each of these phrases using mahā. bd2412 T 04:21, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Indeed, a reader will likely conclude that each discrete space-delimited string of characters conveys some discrete unit of meaning. However, does the maha in [[maha raja]] parse as English? Would the reader infer that they can then refer to a maha deal, a maha examination, a maha big mess, and expect other English readers to understand? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
    How is maha in maha raja any less English than inter in international ? Answer: none of these are English. But it's a separate word, spelled separately for a reason that it is pronounced separately, reflecting what is now an obsolete orthographical practice. People will look up raja, see that it means something, and they will look up maha, and won't find anything (relevant). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
  • It is my position that a citation of "maha" does not attest "mahā"; the two are different spellings, to be attested separately. In this I support -sche and Eirikr. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • A third quote for the mahā spelling has been added. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Neither of the additional citations adequately show use of [[mahā]] as English. One of the additions is [[mahā]] not as a term, but as part of a title: Mahā Purusha is apparently the title of a 1985 film. The other addition is as part of the compound term mahā mudrā, which is apparently a yoga position. These do not illustrate use of [[mahā]] as an independent English term. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
    Maha Purusha is not the name of a movie in that particular citation (note the date), but an anglicized spelling for the Sanskrit term mahā-puruṣa. mahā is a word by the virtue of being separated with whitespace. I'm still waiting for your definition of independent term. It's not a lexical word, but the definition line for mahā doesn't even claim that it is. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • You have not demonstrated that [[mahā]] ever appears in an English text in a way that is 1) not an untranslated term used as code-switching in a text targeted at readers likely familiar with Sanskrit, Pali, etc.; 2) not part of a compound term that has been used as an integral whole in a way where [[mahā]] has no clearly independent meaning in English; 3) actually used as English, such as with English modifiers like more or less, and where [[mahā]] is used to modify a common English term. None of your examples serve as adequate evidence that [[mahā]] is being used as English.
I am perfectly happy for EN WT to have an entry at [[mahā]]. Given the evidence to date, I am strongly opposed to any [[mahā]] entry that lists [[mahā]] as an English term. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:17, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I am not supposed to demonstrate anything of that because the definition line for the third meaning doesn't require it. Whether it should be kept or not is a different matter (for RFD). Note also that there are sufficiently large number of attestations for English of both X and maha X forms (e.g. maha raja and maha purusha mentioned in this very discussion), which is arguably in favor of the claim that maha is in fact a native English adjective used within these constructs meaning "great", but that is already covered by the preceding definitions, and precluded by our knowledge of the origin of such constructs (direct borrowings from sa). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Limiting discussion just to the third sense (which I admit I was not doing -- I was still writing in reference to the entire English entry for [[mahā]]), there are currently five citations listed. These five are, in order:
  1. Invalid: wrong spelling ([[maha]]).
  2. Invalid: part of the untranslated title of a literary work (the w:Mahabharata).
  3. Invalid: apparently part of a proper noun (Mahā Purusha), and also clearly delineated in a way to indicate use of an untranslated non-English term (italicized). This is also the only appearance of this term in the entire cited book.
  4. Invalid: code switching in a text targeted at an audience already familiar with various Sanskrit and/or Pali terminology, and also clearly delineated in a way to indicate use of an untranslated non-English term (underlined). If Google Books is to be believed, the word [[mahā]] appears six times in this book, and only as part of the compound term mahā mudrā.
  5. Invalid: wrong spelling ([[maha]]).
Analysis indicates that none of the provided citations are valid or sufficient to illustrate use of this term, with this particular sense, as English. Delete.
Once we are done beating this dead horse, I would like to nominate the entire English entry for RFV / RFD. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
mahā and maha are the same words in English. The difference is in a macron which is not a part of the English alphabet.
Sanskrit words used in English are not "untranslated" Sanskrit words. They are English words.
The frequency by which a term appears in a work is irrelevant for the purposes of a single attestation. Yes it's a part of the noun (there is no concept of a proper noun in Sanskrit) - but it's spelled and pronounced as a separate word in English, which is not the case in the Sanskrit original. That is both explained in the definition line and the usage note. I'm glad that you've reached that conclusion on your own.
This is not code switching. These are not snippets of Sanskrit used in English. Those are ordinary English words fitting into English syntactical structure. They are used as objects, qualified with articles, pluralized and so on. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
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Could anyone else chime in? I feel like Ivan and I are going in circles. More discussion also at [[Talk:mahā]].

Specific issues that I'm hoping others can help address:

  • Can examples of Spelling A be used as attestations of Spelling B? In this case, are quotes containing maha sufficient to attest the term mahā?
From my reading of past discussions about citations, I arrived at the understanding that citations must demonstrate use of the relevant word with exactly the same spelling. As such, attestations of ate cannot be used to verify the existence of et. Users -sche and Dan Polansky seem to agree with my position, that any citations used to verify the existence of mahā must use the same spelling, diacritics and all.
  • Are terms that are clearly set off in a text (using italics, reverse italics, bold, quotes, etc.) sufficient to demonstrate the non-foreign-ness of that term?
Other discussions suggest that italics and the like are used by authors to indicate the non-nativeness of a term. Ivan above clearly disagrees.
  • Are uses in transliterated titles and names sufficient for attestation?
Two of the citations at [[mahā]] appear to be titles, one the title of a literary work, the other a personal epithet.

There are other issues at hand as well, but for starters, I would appreciate input on the above two points.

TIA, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The form mahā now has has three attestations on its own.
"foreign-ness" and "non-nativeness" (whatever that means) is not a criteria to exclude words. The criteria is usage in English. The problem is that you don't define usage on semantic grounds (i.e. words being used in their meaning alongside other English words to contruct a complete English sentence), but on how they are formatted and where do they originate form. All of these are irrelevant points. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 01:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Note: There is no entry at maha reflecting the senses reported at mahā. It is quite likely that citations supporting additions of those senses to maha could be found, given the usage of the less convenient diacritic form. bd2412 T 04:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The spelling with the diacritic is the more proper one, and that's where the senses and citations should be located. The only exceptions should be relatively common terms (e.g. Shiva not Śiva). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:27, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • As for transliterated titles (of literary works and such), my position is that "... are the two great epics, the "Rāmāyana" and the Mahā Bhārata" is not an attestation of "mahā" as an English word conveying meaning, and should be removed from mahā page. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:15, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    But it's not even defined as a lexical word with a meaning. It's definition is surrounded with the {{n-g}} template. Having a meaning is not a criteria for inclusion, otherwise we wouldn't have entries on affixes, prepositions and so on. Furthermore, it's a part of the title only in that specific citation by sheer coincidence - in others it is not. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:27, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense Hindu religious term meaning "wakefulness" does not seem to be citable. AxaiosRex (talk) 23:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Qaumī Tarāna[edit]

Not only badly formatted, but it seems somewhat unlikely that this spelling is attested. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


Ungoliant (falai) 19:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I could find two hits for cratocratic, 0 for this. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Actually, I recently heard a pundit on a news talk show use it to describe Putins regime. I notice some webpages are using the word kratocratic. Perhaps, someone with better search skills can take a shot at it! WritersCramp (talk) 19:49, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Zero hits on Google Scholar. I see no actual usage in the returns on Google Books. Two hits from Google News, one from Vibe and the other from TheOnion. bd2412 T 21:11, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Did you hear whether they used the "k" or the "c" spelling? ;) Chuck Entz (talk) 03:44, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
We might also want to consider kratocracy for RFV. Equinox 23:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


Sure. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:07, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


Ungoliant (falai) 21:28, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

hammer fist[edit]

SOP? If not, the def needs reworking and the entry could use with some usexes and citations. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


Really? SemperBlotto (talk) 13:33, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

It's just a variation on P U, so an "expression of disgust" at an actual or metaphorical stench. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Four quotations added. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


The definition seems wrong. The word gets exactly three English-language hits in BGC, but to me they seem to mean "bilingual speaker of English and French". Even that usage is questionable as the word is either followed by a question mark or is between brackets or quotation marks. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I am unable to find three uses of any single English sense. If any French-speaking editors have the inclination, though, I think there are enough Google Books, Google Groups, and Google Scholar hits to support at least one French sense. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


Crap. --Romanophile (talk) 16:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Three quotations added. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Nobody else has touched this topic, so I’ll just terminate this request. Closed. --Romanophile (talk) 05:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Note: Entry created on 21 December 2014‎ by Romanophile. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:17, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


I just changed this to alternative form of 襤褸, but the only dictionary that lists this 藍褸 form is JMdict, and other Japanese dictionaries only give 襤褸 (which is the standard form used in Japanese). (additional note: the same thing happened with JMdict on the entry for 鼾睡, which was previously 鼾酔, a form again only listed in JMdict, until Eirikr moved it to the correct form) Nibiko (talk) 12:44, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

  • I've noticed in the past that JMdict and KANJIDIC (possibly the same datasets?) have occasionally included mistakes, so I always take their information with a grain of salt. When a purported kanji spelling and the meaning diverge substantially, as was the case with 鼾酔, my eyebrows rise. (FWIW, the JA term kansui spelled with the first character as (kan, snoring) is listed as meaning "to sleep while snoring". The spelling 鼾睡 expresses that meaning. The JMdict spelling 鼾酔, meanwhile, is listed as meaning just "snoring", but the meaning inherent in the spelling is more like "drunken snorning; to be drunk while snoring".)
The Kokugo Dai Jiten (KDJ) from Shogakukan is pretty good about listing even rare and obsolete terms and alternative spellings, so if a spelling is missing from the KDJ, I become suspicious. When a given spelling doesn't even appear in use in a Google search (zero hits for "鼾酔は", which seems highly suspect; moreover, all given hits for just "鼾酔" seem to be JMdict echoes), I start to think that JMdict made another mistake.
Looking at 藍褸, this appears to be yet another JMdict mistake. This compound's spelling inherently means "indigo + tattered". Japanese ぼろ (boro) means "rag; ragged, threadbare, raggedy", so the (indigo) spelling seems very odd. The normal kanji spelling for boro is 襤褸, and this spelling is literally "threadbare + tattered", which makes much more sense for the meaning of the term boro.
A quick Google search for google:"藍褸"+"は" seems to find 4110 hits, collapsing to just 132 if you try to page through, and all of these appear to be JMdict echoes. Searching for google books:"藍褸"+"は" seems to generate 117 hits, collapsing to 47, but all of the hits I've looked at are presented at best in "Snippet View" based on OCR. I strongly suspect that these are scannos, especially given the jumbled nature of many of the excerpts shown by Google.
@Tsukuyone, TAKASUGI Shinji, Whym, エリック・キィ: you're all listed as native JA speakers, and I think you're all active. Can any of you confirm the status of the 藍褸 spelling? Is this an alternative form for 襤褸? Is it a common misspelling for 襤褸? Or, is it a mistake? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
藍褸 seems a rare alternate spelling of 襤褸, though I have never seen it: [90], [91]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I too have never seen this. The links you include, however, also suggest the possibility of simple scannos -- where OCR has misinterpreted the text and used the wrong character.
Can anyone confirm whether this spelling actually happens in the real world? Or is this purely an artifact of inadequate technology? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:48, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I think it is an alternative spelling mostly for Chinese. “漢字典”(Kanjiten, 2002, Akira Owada [et al.], Tōkyō: Ōbunsha. ISBN 4-01-072118-9), a paper dictionary dedicated to reading Old Chinese, contains this entry as a synonym of 襤褸 although their are all represented in on'yomi, ランル. It has even another alternative spelling, 藍蔞. Judging from the element, I personally hesitate to put 藍褸 as Japanese lemma. Furthermore, I usually write this word mostly in hiragana (ぼろ) or katakana (ボロ). --エリック・キィ (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I would suggest to include it as an obsolete alternative spelling in Japanese, perhaps adding that it was primarily used in the context of sinology. Daijiten (1934-1936) and Jigen (1923) list it explicitly as an alternate spelling. Jigen further explains in the entry for 藍 that "襤は古、藍に通ず" ("襤 traditionally leads to 藍"). It should be noted that in this context Jigen probably means ancient Chinese by "traditionally", though. There is what looks like a non-scanno use in Japanese in 狩野直喜『支那學文藪』(1927), p.295 (at the fifth line from the right): "一方より見れば彼が斯學に於ける篳路藍褸の功はその人格によってこれを沒することは出來ぬ。" The work itself seems to be about sinology, in line with エリック・キィ's comment above. Another is in 青柳綱太郎『鮮人の記せる豊太閤征韓戦記』(1912) (...): "藍褸の狀は、反つて平凉子を戴くが如くならず". That said, I'm with others about the (lack of) current usage. I had never seen the spelling before and for me 襤 and 藍 are totally different except for the shared on'yomi pronunciation (ran). By the way, we should probably remove boro and add ranru as for the pronunciation of 藍褸 unless the former reading is attested. So far all we have found about the spelling is read ranru not boro, unlike 襤褸 which should have both. Whym (talk) 03:17, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


RFV of etymology 2, the noun meaning "victory". The sense had three citations, but one was from a website, one (moved to the talk page) seems to be of the Old English word, mentioned in quotation marks, and the third is of "Sig rune" as a proper name of this rune. (Diana Paxson uses "sig" in compounds a lot, e.g. "word-sig", "work-sig", "sig-galdor", "sig-rod", but it's not clear to me that it means "victory" rather than the rune in these compounds.) Incidentally, that sense — sig as one of the names of the 's' rune — is probably citable in both uppercase and lowercase, as are most of the rune names (ansuz, etc), though we don't currently have entries for them that I've found. - -sche (discuss) 20:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

ghayr muqallidism[edit]

Very rare. Needs third citation. Equinox 14:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The second citation uses ghair muqallidism. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv - adjective sense. SemperBlotto (talk) 09:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I was going to suggest deletion, but then, to my surprise, I found three cites illustrating adjectival usage:
her gaze became more basilisk in its expression, and her countenance bore some similitude to that of a handsome fiend
- M. L. O'Byrne – 1884 Ill-won Peerages, Or, An Unhallowed Union - Page 126
Well, She is so basilisk ; there's no death in her eyes ...
- 1870 The British drama: illustrated - Volume 4 - Page 997
He had never seen her quite like this, so basilisk, so frightening
- Witi Tame Ihimaera – 2004 Whanau II - Page 167
Will these suffice? (If so, then I'll add then to the entry properly formatted. ) Dbfirs 09:49, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Those are sufficient, IMHO. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:41, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

St. Elmo's fires, Saint Elmo's fires[edit]

A mass noun, so are these two attestable? Donnanz (talk) 11:20, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I've added three quotations of each, and more are available on Google Books. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
In any case, I will change the main entries to countable/uncountable, pending the outcome here. Donnanz (talk) 13:06, 14 February 2015 (UTC)


Basque sense. Trask's Historical Linguistics, page 558[92] says that French Basque has krokodila and Spanish Basque has kokodilo and that krokodilo is the Academy form used by no one. Since Basque is a well-documented language, it needs actual use to stay.--Prosfilaes (talk) 07:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

[93], [94], [95], [96]. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:55, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


Final form in the middle of a word? --kc_kennylau (talk) 17:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

It's probably a simple error, but what do our two Ladino-speakers (User:Johanna-Hypatia and User:Embryomystic) think? - -sche (discuss) 22:53, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I've had problems with this editor overlooking language-specific details when editing in multiple languages. I suspect they're not as good at editing in many languages as they'd like to think. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:09, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
It's just plain wrong, that's all. Uno is אונו. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 03:40, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
You're absolutely right. I'm not sure where this error creeped in, but it's definitely אונו. In fact, the page could be moved, with no issues. embryomystic (talk) 04:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Moved. --kc_kennylau (talk) 12:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: The family of diseases marked by this stage of fungus development on a plant.

I originally added this sense more than five years ago, but I cannot find the evidence on which I presumably based this definition. I have not found the definition at Aecidium at OneLook Dictionary Search or at Century 1911. If it were wrongly deleted, users would still find the causative agent and reference to more common names for diseases caused by the organisms of the form genus. DCDuring TALK 19:07, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

trouser departments[edit]

I dunno, WF, I'm pretty sure that the idiomatic sense can't be pluralised. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:44, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

No, only in phrases like "the jacket and trouser departments (of a store)". I've just deleted it. Equinox 00:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Cup Final[edit]

(not tagged) I have added two plurals (no entries yet); I think both forms may be acceptable and verifiable. By the way, cup finals occur in other countries as well, such as Norway (cupfinale), so they're not peculiar to Britain. Donnanz (talk) 16:17, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-senses (3)

  1. (intransitive) To cut off, detach or separate something
  2. (intransitive) To think about multiple things individually
  3. (intransitive) To stop thinking about something

I have added two senses that I could understand that seem to fit both other dictionaries' definitions and the usage I found. But there is some, sparse usage that I can't make much sense of. Perhaps these senses fit that usage. DCDuring TALK 16:43, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


Guess who. Equinox 21:43, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


Created by Luciferwildcat, who was notorious for bad entries. Very little (in terms of actual usage) to be found in Google Books and Groups. Equinox 00:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This word is extremely crude. I have no problem with this word being removed. Tharthan (talk) 03:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
That's Luciferwildcat for you: he evidently decided to specialize in adding terms everyone else found too disgusting to deal with. The problem is that he didn't really care if the stuff he came up with was in actual use, and had no sense at all when it came to lexicology. He was very prolific, and probably has more deleted entries to his name than just about anyone else in the history of Wiktionary (though WF has quite a few, too). Chuck Entz (talk) 03:35, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Cited (just barely) under the existing sense. There's a couple of other senses (penis viewed in relation to fellatio, and general term of abuse) which I'll also attempt to cite. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 20:26, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


Supposed to explain constructions like beersicle and cumsicle, but in that case where does the s come from? Surely these are blends with popsicle, and this is not a true suffix. Equinox 00:32, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This is what comes of not discouraging ahistorical morphological pseudo-etymologies when there is a historical record.
The problem starts with the entry for popsicle. There was no pre-existing -icle suffix. The term was coined as a trademark, a development of the original "Epsicle" (a blend of inventor Epperson's last name and icicle [spelling following the sound, not the orthography]). w:Popsicle (brand) has the story, which looks reasonably well researched. Popsicle would seem to be a blend of (soda) pop and Epsicle.
I think the blend view for beersicle is good, but would-be contributors like to have entries like -icle to fit their concept of how terms develop. The situation is somewhat analogous to the persistent pressure to include collocations as if they were idioms, no matter how transparent. DCDuring TALK 01:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
An arguably transparent collocation is much less damaging to the dictionary than an incorrect interpretation of a suffix. It is abundantly clear that "-sicle", not "-icle", is used to create words (in addition to the foregoing, dogsicle and dicksicle appear attestable). I have yet to find a word formed by adding just "-icle". Of course, not all suffixes are handed down from antiquity (see -zilla, -a-palooza, -punk). bd2412 T 04:29, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
And nonetheless, no one has acted to reverse the numerous erroneous "equivalent to" morphologies and hard-coded "suffixed by" categorizations. DCDuring TALK 06:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
@BD2412: The word snoticle is clearly not from the popsicle root (see here if you don't know what it is) and must be formed from comparison with icicle. I'm pretty sure the word is current, I've heard it on at least two documentaries now, but off-hand couldn't find acceptable cites to create an entry. SpinningSpark 20:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
For all I know, "snoticle" may be formed from comparison with testicle. bd2412 T 20:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
The first thing to do would be to create an entry for snoticle with attestation, especially early use. DCDuring TALK 20:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Of course it isn't formed from testicle, that's obviously a load of balls. You criticise me for saying this is obvious, yet you are quite happy to say it is "abundandly clear" on the "-sicle" ending with equally little evidence. SpinningSpark 00:15, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
At some point it might be that there are a sufficient number of instances of productive use of -icle that cannot be readily explained by any of the -(i}culus ("diminutive"), the icicle, or the popsicle theories. IMO that would not require full attestation of each instance, rather three or more instance of such productive use, possibly each with a single citation (from a durably archived source. Maybe none of the theories advanced fit snoticle, ie, if it isn't sucked on, it isn't cold, and it isn't "small". DCDuring TALK 02:13, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Ah, perhaps I wasn't clear -- I was suggesting that -icle might ultimately derive from -(i)culus, not that it *is* -(i)culus.
On a separate note, this blog post does state that snoticle is from snot + icicle, suggesting that the spelunking term might be appropriation by analogy (i.e. the cave snoticles look like the frozen snot snoticles). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
I was about to suggest that brinicle, rusticle, and snoticle together may provide evidence that should leads us to believe that -icle is becoming productive in a community of natural scientists. Brinicles are frozen, but the others are not. DCDuring TALK 02:46, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
There's also something similar referred to as w:snottites Chuck Entz (talk) 03:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
A couple of other examples of the rusticle-type sense (neither sufficiently attested for a full entry): There seems to be rare use of "limicle" to mean a concretion of limestone (in other words, a stalactite), and Alan Turing coined (as a nonce word) "greasicle" for the wax that hangs from a candle. Smurrayinchester (talk) 11:00, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
I wonder whether any of these derive from barnacle, merely by pronunciation. bd2412 T 14:37, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I think this shows sufficient evidence to demonstrate productivity as a distinct suffix. The attestable term rusticle and the other terms snoticle and limicle cannot be explained as blends of popsicle or icicle as they lack both the semantics and the phonetics. Greasicle is also likely due to the meaning though phonetics seem ambiguous. Brinicle is possible phonetically, but is at least ambiguous semantically. None of these can be plausibly explained semantically as derived from -culus as the semantics are wrong. DCDuring TALK 15:23, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
To further demonstrate productivity one could add the numerous instances at Urban Dictionary of terms ending in -icle, most of which have lost the "s" sound and some of which are semantically remote from icicle and popsicle, though many are not. DCDuring TALK 15:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I think the answer is that it started out as a blend, but was reanalyzed as stem + suffix when people started trying to coin similar words. It looks to me like most of the stem + suffix coinages used -sicle, but occasionally someone would reanalyze things again as stem + -icle. The reanalyses obliterate the true etymological origins of the class as a whole, but in my opinion they're valid for the new coinages. In the cases at hand, though, the stem + -icle ones are simply wrong- they don't account for the extra "s". I think what we need is the correct etymology at popsicle, as DC During laid it out for us, stem + -sicle for everything that has an "s" sound in the appropriate place, and stem + -icle for the one or two exceptions that don't have the "s" sound there and can't be explained as blends. That means we don't delete anything, but we redo most of the etymologies so that Category:English words suffixed with -icle loses most of its members to Category:English words suffixed with -sicle and Category:English blends (or maybe all, until someone verifies whatever rare exceptions there are out there). At any rate, this probably should have been at rfd or maybe rfc, since we all agree that the compounds exist, but most of us disagree with the way they're analyzed in the etymologies. After all, it's kind of hard to verify which suffix is used by looking at running English text. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:54, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
I do not think that "popsicle" is "sodapop" + -sicle. I would reckon that it is unfortunately "lollipop" + -sicle. Tharthan (talk) 03:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
That's certainly possible and might be the better choice. I read that the inventor came up with the idea from observing frozen soda pop with a stirrer or something left in the glass, but the role of the inventor's children leaves other possibilities. DCDuring TALK 15:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

In agreement that we're dealing with two separate suffixes with two separate (but connected) etymologies: -icle, from icicle, and -sicle, from Popsicle. The former seems to be used mainly to construct words for things which dangle like an icicle, the latter mainly to construct words for things which in some way resemble a popsicle, i.e. being frozen or lickable. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 18:53, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, good. So "limicle" does exist? I'll have to mark that down in my list of native words and remember to use that instead of stalactite in the future. Thanks Smurrayinchester. Tharthan (talk) 21:34, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
@Cloudcuckoolander: If a term ending in icle has no immediately preceding "s" sound, is not plausibly a diminutive semantically, and is neither frozen nor to be sucked, and doesn't hang straight down like an icicle, then the evidence says it may well be considered to terminate in a suffix -icle. If it retains the connections phonetically ("s") or semantically with either with icicle ("frozen") or popsicle ("to be sucked") then the arguments are not so strong. -icle seems to have an etymology that includes (perhaps "influenced by") -culus("diminutive").
It seems likely that -icle will come to seem like a true suffix rather than the result of a blend in more cases as popsicle diminishes in import for a larger share of English speakers (India ?), but I don't think it is there yet. DCDuring TALK 21:40, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Looking at the etymology for ickle, the source of the -icle in icicle, I'm amused to see that this derives “from Proto-Germanic *jikilaz, *jekulaz (piece of ice), diminutive of Proto-Germanic *jekô (lump of ice)” -- suggesting a clear parallel between Latin diminutive -(cu)lus and Proto-Germanic *-(ku|ki)laz. (I see that the Latin term has no etymology, so I've just added an RFE to the underlying Latin lemma at -lus.) Does anyone know if these are cognates from a common root, or was one borrowed from the other? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:19, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
FWIW, here is a list of all English entries ending in -icle, excluding derived terms, e.g. "bioparticle" derived from "particle"; as that example indicates, some entries in the list are not relevant to the discussion at hand. - -sche (discuss) 02:47, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
DCDuring the Proto-Germanic diminutive attached to icicle's etymon is not based upon or influenced by Latin's diminutive suffix, but is rather cognate to it. Not the same thing. Tharthan (talk) 03:22, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I was limiting myself to what I view as a possibly valid suffix used in the the very few terms ending in -icle that actually seem not to be derived by blending or from the Latin diminutive. That suffix, mostly used by natural scientists, might be influenced by the medical, scientific, and technical terms ending in -icle that are from Latin terms ending in -(c(u))lus. DCDuring TALK 03:55, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I see. But who is to say that "-icle" hasn't been (in the minds of many) a hypothetical suffix meaning "(frozen) thing that hangs like an icicle", i.e. aforementioned limicle, rusticle, brinicle etc.? It may well be, yes. Tharthan (talk) 04:10, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
A rusticle, limicle, or snoticle is not frozen. (A brinicle, OTOH, is.) I was looking for a subset of use that did not have the "s" sound and was somewhat remote semantically from icicle and popsicle. There are at least these three. Just about everything else is arguably still a blend of something with icicle, popsicle, or particle, if not a derivative of a Latin term ending is (c(u))lus. DCDuring TALK 04:47, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Hence why I put frozen in rounded brackets. It seems much more likely that limicle is a blend of lime(stone) and icicle. Same for brinicle and rusticle. Tharthan (talk) 04:58, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


Wikipedia:United States dollar:

"The United States dollar (sign: $; code: USD; also abbreviated US$ and referred to as the Dollar, U.S. dollar, American dollar or US Dollar) is the official currency of the United States and its overseas territories. It is a Federal Reserve Note and consists of 100 smaller cent units."

Should "Dollar" be capitalized? If so, doesn't that warrant a Wiktionary entry? I'm not entirely sure myself. WikiWinters (talk) 11:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Prescriptively speaking, it shouldn't be capitalized, because currency names aren't capitalized in English (compare pound, yen, euro, etc.). That doesn't mean it descriptively never is capitalized, though; if attestable it could conceivably be called an {{alternative case form of}} dollar. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:25, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be capitalized when used as an alleged object of worship: the Almighty Dollar. DCDuring TALK 20:56, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
It follows the general capitalization rules: capitalized at the beginning of a sentence, when it's personalized, etc. There is no need for a definition. Lmaltier (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

colom xixella[edit]

Catalan, a type of pigeon. The best I could find was a Wikipedia page about pigeons. --Type56op9 (talk) 16:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This is probably SOP anyway- see xixella. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:58, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Also, the most common English name for the species is stock dove, in the same way that wild pigeons are referred to often (at least in older sources) as rock doves. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:03, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


I can't find any citations of the verb, and the only hits I can find of the noun are of a medicine (apparently unrelated to the entry we have). - -sche (discuss) 22:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I found this: http://www.slideshare.net/accipio/william-langlandsvisionofpiersplowmaneditedbybenbyramwigfield

Search for the word on the page. Tharthan (talk) 02:43, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


This text has it in reference to an Old English quote, but the Old English quote in question uses "forbisne". It is possible that the author of the text was taking a jab at the Modern English term, which had become quite dated (or perhaps already archaic by this time). Tharthan (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


Found it in this text which details dialectal English vocabulary. Tharthan (talk) 02:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


As noted on the talk page, this doesn't seem to exist in English. - -sche (discuss) 22:52, 17 February 2015 (UTC)


google books:"a bytale" turns up nothing, and bare "bytale" turns up nothing obvious, although there were so many scannos of "by tale" that I may have missed something. - -sche (discuss) 22:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This is one of those "scanned from image to text" texts, but this contains a possible instance of the term: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AJF7956.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext

(NOTE: This takes umpteen years to load on my computer, but it does eventually load.) Tharthan (talk) 02:38, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


I can't find modern English uses to support any of the senses; only mentions in other dictionaries and wordlists of the phrase "a shame and a bysen", which could potentially support one sense. I have not yet checked any of the many alt spellings we and other dictionaries list (bizon, bisen, byzen, byson, bysson, barzon, bazon, bizzen).
Some hits are scannos of "by sense" and eye dialect of "business", others are mentions of Old English words.
- -sche (discuss) 23:04, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The English Dialect Dictionary has (pointers to) citations of bizon (Midford's Sngs., 1818), byzin (Keelmin's Ann., 1869), bizen (Stuart's Joco-Ser. Disc., 1686), bison (Robson's Bards of Tyne, 1895), byzen (Anderson's Ballads, 1808), bizen (Linton's Linnie Lorton, 1867), bizen (Waugh's Jannock, 1872). Some of these may be Scots. - -sche (discuss) 23:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
This word most certainly still exists. It is, however, quite rare. Finding attestations to it is even harder, as the Web is cluttered with unrelated material that has to be bumped into before one can find the attestations. Tharthan (talk) 02:47, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


Very rare alt-form of menstruator; might be citable, so didn't delete on sight. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 08:14, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Cited. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 18:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

amercement royal[edit]

Any non-mentions out there? Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


Slang for marijuana. I see a handful of Web page hits. Equinox 20:24, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


A dictionary-only word. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:59, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

mooch ass grassy ass[edit]

Citations, pour fab or? Smurrayinchester (talk) 13:09, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

There's one for "Mooch-ass grassy-ass" on grassy ass. Siuenti (talk) 23:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
  • That's the same one we currently have at mooch ass grassy ass, and I'd argue that it's not a valid citation for either. It's not being used for its meaning, but solely as the punchline to a knock-knock joke:
"Knock knock!" Eh? Who dere? "Grassy!" Grassy? Grassy quién? "Grassy-ass, amigo! Mooch-ass grassy-ass!" Ha ha, de nada, jefe!
The citation that Mr. Granger added seems valid though (even though it occurs in the context of another phonetic spelling). Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:35, 20 February 2015 (UTC)


-- Liliana 02:10, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

A very weird one. Certainly widely used on Usenet (more in Danish/Norwegian than English though), although it looks like it simply means "Æ, Ø, and Å" (rather than meaning "special characters" more generally). The hashtag thing also seems to be accurate (these are the tweets tagged #ÆØÅ), but a) I don't know how we could cite that, and b) a hashtag isn't really dictionary material and I can't find any evidence of it being used as an adjective outside tags. Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:46, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
If you search on the letters in other orders, you get the same kinds of hits on Usenet (though far fewer- maybe it's the standard order). It doesn't look like what's defined. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:07, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
The last three letters in both Danish and Norwegian (that is the correct order), and they all come after Z. I don't know whether this entry is useful or not though. Donnanz (talk) 22:16, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


Doesn't seem legit. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:51, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

The page seems to be misspelled. Jucheist (currently a redlink) does get some hits (google books:"jucheist", google books:"jucheists"). I'd suggest simply moving this. (I also don't know how well it fits the category of religions - the Google Books hits are all using it in a political sense, although of course it's hard to differentiate political ideology, cult of personality and religion in a state like North Korea) Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:26, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense religion practiced by the Serer people. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:54, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

If this fails, whoever deletes the sense please remember to also delete the term from Template:list:religionists/en. - -sche (discuss) 09:08, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "An adherent of the Yoruba religion". —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:55, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


Pitjantjatjara. I think this is a mistaken entry, ngayulu being the term I have encountered as a first person singular nominative pronoun. However, I'm not totally certain, so I'm bringing it here for more of a look. This, that and the other (talk) 10:00, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

A Google Books search suggests that you are correct, bare ngayu is not used. Perhaps someone created it as the root to which the case endings are added (ngayu-lu, ngayu-la, ngayu-nya, ngayu-ku, etc)? - -sche (discuss) 18:10, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


As a Libertarian (registered in the US political party), I've never seen this form of the acronym before. I've only seen it without the periods. We don't have G.O.P. --WikiWinters (talk) 21:05, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it an acronym, since I doubt anyone would pronounce it as a word rather than as the names of the letters. The person who created the entry lives in England and is notorious for creating entries without any evidence that the terms actually exist, so you're probably right to question it- but searching for the combination of two common individual letters is going to be a nightmare. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:46, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: So where do we go from here? --WikiWinters (talk) 21:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


"An androsexual male or SGA male." Really? I've only seen this as recent Internet slang for aromantic, which means something rather different. Equinox 21:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


Kiwima (talkcontribs) added an interjection sense in this edit, with a defintion of “A cry before jumping out at or attacking something.”

Isn't that banzai instead? Do people actually use bonsai in English with this meaning? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

There is a great deal of confusion on that matter among most Americans, and some books do seem to reference this, but I don't think it's a real sense; depends whether you count something like the example on page 144 of Weirdsville USA: The Obsessive Universe of David Lynch by Paul Woods: "Suddenly distracted by a bonsai plant, Gordon mistakes the Japanese war cry ('Banzai!') in WWII movies: 'BONSAI!' he hollers [] ". —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Is the would-be English term attested as per WT:ATTEST? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

  • You will have to refer to the RFD for the "would-be" English place name. Donnanz (talk) 16:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


I searched for this plus army in Google Books and found only one relevant result: Embedded: A Marine Corps Adviser Inside the Iraqi Army by Wesley Gray, which has more of a mention than a use. Equinox 00:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

  • A few cites (hyphen use is inconsistent):
  • 1996, Chris E. Stout, The Integration of Psychological Principles in Policy Development, Greenwood Publishing Group (ISBN 9780275950118), page 191
    Compassion, self-esteem (based on achievement rather than mere repetition of Barney-style mantras), self-discipline, work ethic, and patience are among the other values taught in this program.
  • 2001 June 7, Ryan, “IIS 4 SMTP Relay and OWA on DMZ connecting to Ex 5.5”, microsoft.public.exchange.admin, Usenet:
    Could someone please break it down Barney style for me on what needs to go in what fields for both IIS and Ex.
  • 2010, Paul J. Roarke, Corps Strength: A Marine Master Gunnery Sergeant's Program for Elite Fitness, Ulysses Press (ISBN 9781569757741), page 16
    I'll break it down for you, as we say in the Marines, “Barney style.” The foundation for health and fitness can only be built on three solid blocks: Half a brain, The RIGHT exercise, and good food.
  • 2010 March 7, Baron, “Can not save or save as in word 2007 HELP!”, microsoft.public.word.docmanagement, Usenet:
    Can someone help me and break it down Barney style....
  • 2011, Daniel Powers, The Perfect Devotional for People Who Aren't, Xlibris Corporation (ISBN 9781456890926), page 653
    I will break it down Barney style for you real quick. Say you have a child, and that child is reaching into the cookie jar.
  • 2013, Jess Bravin, The Terror Courts: Rough Justice at Guantanamo Bay, Yale University Press (ISBN 9780300189209), page 146
    “He can really take a complex, complicated subject and break it down, Barney-style,” Couch said, like the purple dinosaur popular with preschoolers.
Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:12, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I didn't realise it was named after the children's educational dinosaur character. (Ety now added.) If he is used in other phrases ("tell it to me like Barney would"?) then perhaps the entry should be Barney, making this SoP; though this is just an observation. Equinox 16:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


To propose marriage on the first date (after a character in How I Met Your Mother). It's in Urban Dictionary... Equinox 00:52, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Looking into the past tense, as a means of avoiding instances of the name:
mosbied - mosbied at OneLook Dictionary Search - Google "mosbied" (BooksGroupsScholarNews Archive)
I get nothing. Looking at the wider web, google:"mosbied" shows 398 hits, but that collapses down to 98 when paging through them. I don't think this even qualifies for “hot word” status, let alone a regular entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


Equinox 16:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I could not cite this. On the other hand, homoromanticism, which has the same meaning (and seems a lot less awkward), proved citable. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 22:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)


Equinox 16:33, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't cite. Probably because aromanticism is the form that has caught on. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 22:41, 27 February 2015 (UTC)


Equinox 16:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't cite. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Couldn't really cite demiromantic to my satisfaction either. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk)


Equinox 16:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't cite. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Same goes for sapioromantic. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)


The single Google Books match is an obvious nonce (in quotation marks) and is not even the given sense! Equinox 16:38, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

For the record, User:kc_kennylau has been re-adding rubbish like "heteroromanticness" and "sapioromanticness" in blatant contradiction of WT:CFI. I blocked him for a day so he can actually read the rules. Equinox 02:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Couldn't cite. Also couldn't cite polyromantic. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 00:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


Equinox 03:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

deleted Leasnam (talk) 04:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


French - Supposed to be the plural of 5à7. Searching for this term is inherently difficult, due to the punctuation marks. Also 5-à-7s, 5@7s, 5 à 7s. Also, I'd guess that 5 à 7 are invariable nouns in French, but I never learned the plural spelling rules for entries composed mostly of numbers and punctuation. I was a letters man myself... --Type56op9 (talk) 09:49, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Plural same as singular: Les entrées se feront le parfait compagnon de vos 5 à 7. —Stephen (Talk) 10:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


An IP tried to remove the Italian section with the edit comment "please don't be silly: this word DOES NOT EXIST". It may not be the normal or preferred form, but does it actually not exist? I found this, but I don't know this dictionary very well, so I don't know if they include as dialects what we consider to be separate languages, and I hardly speak Italian at all (it's only a mention, anyway). There seem to be Italian Google Books hits, but I'll leave it to others who speak Italian to decide if they're applicable, and whether it merits context tags. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:47, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It’s an obsolete spelling, or at least chiefly obsolete. Most post-1950 hits in Google Books are reprints of older books, or are quoting older text. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:03, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Saran Wrap[edit]

Is this a trademark? If so, can the entry be marked suitably? Donnanz (talk) 15:31, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it's in the category of stuff like Kleenex and Jell-O that start out as brand names but are now used generically. Also, it's a verb too, the most verifiable form of which is saran-wrap. Purplebackpack89 21:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The only thing that could be determined by rfv is whether it meets WT:BRAND. If it does, then the matter of whether it is/was a trademark should go in the etymology section (etymonline has an entry for Saran, which it says is trademarked). As PBP says, this is probably a w:Generic trademark, which means it's valid dictionary material for us and an unending source of annoyance for Dow Chemical Co.'s intellectual-property people ... Chuck Entz (talk) 02:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
This is tangential, but I suspect that either Saran wrap or saran wrap is the more common capitalization. - -sche (discuss) 05:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
...although ngrams suggest otherwise. Huh. - -sche (discuss) 05:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
So it's possibly 50% trademark? I haven't got a clue, I don't think it's sold here, and I think it's what we call "cling film". Donnanz (talk) 10:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
It's listed in the Oxford Dictionary of English (both hard copy and online) as a trademark. Origin: 1940s, of unknown origin. Donnanz (talk) 18:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Note that ngrams might merely reflect the fact that this product is commonly referred to as a specific trademark, and not in the generic sense required by WT:BRAND. bd2412 T 19:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
As Chuck Entz says, it's valid dictionary material; if Oxford can list it without any repercussions, so can Wiktionary. Donnanz (talk) 19:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
There is ample evidence that it has been genericized, such as saranwrap, use of verbal inflected forms of variant spellings, and attributive use, but not all of the evidence is of the form being RfVed. DCDuring TALK 21:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I suggest making Saran wrap the lemma, with a redirect from saran wrap (and also Saran Wrap if that form meets BRAND). Put a note in the etymology section that it originated as a brand name, if this is the case. (Avoid any other indication of trademark status, since it opens up a can of legal worms; see WT:TRADEMARK.) - -sche (discuss) 22:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Oxford uses the same format (Saran Wrap) so it must be widespread. I think this entry should keep the format it has at present. Donnanz (talk) 23:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The trademark can be mentioned in the etymology. Not mentioning it at all is misleading. DCDuring TALK 22:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
A few forms are in use, Saran wrap and saranwrap not being common. Saran Wrap, the trademarked product, was formerly, but is no longer made from PVDC. Saran is apparently still a trade name for PVDC. DCDuring TALK 00:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • My position is that Saran Wrap should be the lemma, and that there is no genuine doubt about this being attested per WT:ATTEST. See also Saran Wrap at OneLook Dictionary Search, which finds "Saran Wrap" and "Saran wrap" in oxforddictionaries.com[97] ("Saran Wrap", not OED), Collins[98] ("Saran wrap"), and Macmillan[99] ("Saran Wrap"). Ngram for "Saran wrap", case-insensitive does not provided any conclusive evidence that the occurrences of "Saran Wrap" are not in the genericized use. Looking for attesting quotations supporting WT:BRAND specifically (a policy that I never supported, and for which a rationale has never been presented) is something I feel disinclined to do right now. Also for comparison: (saranwrap*50),Saran Wrap,saran wrap at Google Ngram Viewer. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


Nothing obvious on a quick Google book search. SemperBlotto (talk) 08:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)



Does anyone really refer to the Kangxi Dictionary as "Kangxi", or 釒 as a "Kangxi"?


Really? SemperBlotto (talk) 20:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Nothing in Google Books or Google Groups. Hundreds of instances of "eye. Feel", and also lots of "how does your eye feel?" and "make your eye feel". A handful of eye-dialect/sillyness cases along the lines of "eye feel reel-E bad". Two or three uses referring to feeling in the eye itself. Absolutely nothing that matches the definitions given. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


rfv-sense: One who is killed or suffers greatly because of an identity or position, e.g., a young prince killed when his father, the king, is deposed for the purpose of preventing the restoration of the monarchy later. We already seem to include this sense at sense #2: One who sacrifices his or her life, station, or something of great personal value, for the sake of principle or to sustain a cause. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:28, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

You sure you want to RfV this? Not RfD it? Purplebackpack89 14:09, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


Attested per WT:ATTEST? google books:"racefellow", google groups:"racefellow", racefellow at OneLook Dictionary Search. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

google books:"racefellows" actually finds what would be race-fellows, it seems; race-fellows seems attested. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:06, 1 March 2015 (UTC)