Module talk:fa-headword

Transliteration of comparatives/superlatives with no ZWNJ

(Notifying Ariamihr, Benwing2, Dijan, Mazsch, Qehath, Rodrigo5260, ZxxZxxZ, Sameerhameedy, Saranamd): Hello. I suggest to NOT add a hyphen where it's unjustified (for etymological reasons, compound words, plural, comparatives//superlatives, suffixes, prefixes, etc.

For example, بزرگ‌تر (bozorg-tar) has a ZWNJ, so a hyphen is completely justified but زیباتر (zibâtar) has no ZWNJ, so no hyphen is needed.

Pls advise if you object. I have added a clause in WT:FA TR#Other symbols or combinations #19.

I have contrasted there کتاب‌ها (ketâb-hâ) vs کتابها (ketâbhâ) vs کتاب ها (ketâb hâ). (Note the presence or lack of the hyphen or space)

The transliteration should match the spelling, IMO. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The change on the module I am suggesting is to remove the hyphen on -tar and -tarin after non-connecting letters (no ZWNJ is inserted either). Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:05, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. A ZWNJ is not added to زیبا for purely technical reasons. If alef was a combining letter the ZWNJ have been added, and similarly if beh was a non-combining letter it would not have been added. This sort of inconsistent hyphenization will only confuse readers.

Hyphenization should match the realities of the language, not the spelling. This becomes especially important because spacing usage differs significantly in early or colloquial texts. For example, it is very common in pre-1900 texts to join the preposition به to the next word. So should بخانه من (be xâne-ye man, “to my house”) be transliterated as <bexâne-ye man>, even though به is in all non-orthographic aspects a fully separate word?

In the case of the comparative/superlative, it takes the main stress of the word, so my feeling is that it should perhaps not be hyphenated at all because it does not behave as an inflectional affix.—Saranamd (talk) 08:40, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Saranamd, ZxxZxxZ, Benwing2: I see your point but I need more clarity on it.

Do you suggest بخانه من (be-xâne-ye man) or بخانه من (be xâne-ye man)? It makes no sense to put a space, IMO. BTW, proclitic prepositions are hyphenated in Arabic but not separated with a space. E.g بِمِطْرَقَةٍ (bi-miṭraqatin, “with a hammer”), which can't be automated.

Are you suggesting no hyphens for comparatives/superlatives, regardless of the spelling?

What should be the deal with کتاب‌ها (ketâb-hâ) vs کتابها (ketâbhâ) vs کتاب ها (ketâb hâ)? How should all the cases be transliterated?

Pls post your ideas on compound words as well, on attached prefixes and suffixes, with or without ZWNJ. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:16, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

بخانه من can be either <be-xâne-ye man> or <be xâne-ye man>. I prefer the latter with a space because it is linguistically exactly the same as the modern spelling به خانه من, just a distinction in orthographic preference not reflecting any feature of the (spoken) language.

Superlatives/comparatives can have either a hyphen or no hyphen, I just want consistency. Same for plurals, except that ها should never be spaced because it is phonologically part of the word (even taking stress). If we space it, we give the wrong impression that it is an unstressed separate particle like را.

I feel that all three cases of <ketâbhâ> should be transliterated identically, regardless of the minor difference between direct joining, ZWNJ, and space. This is because they are pronounced identically, and it might even just be a matter of technical difficulty (ZWNJ is often not available).

For compound and affixed words with ZWNJ, I feel a hyphen would be useful/preferable.—Saranamd (talk) 09:24, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Saranamd, Benwing2: @Saranamd, I see your point but I don't I agree in some instances with you that regardless of the spelling we need to transliterate so that it's easier to read? Separating components (prefixes/suffixes/compounds) with a hyphen is a compromise but not a space. It's not a common practice with regular Persian contributors, let alone Persian textbooks or dictionaries. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:11, 6 April 2023 (UTC)