Reconstruction talk:Proto-Slavic/jaro

@Benwing2, Useigor, Wikitiki89 Hi. Correct me if I'm wrong but this reconstruction is quite bad. Where are these derivative spellings coming from?! Russian and Ukrainian are definitely wrong, Bulgarian seems wrong as well. Russian remaining descendant is only ярово́й (jarovój), OCS and Old Russian are ярь (jarĭ) / ярь (jarĭ). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:47, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev, from Etymological dictionary of Slavic languages and they're dialectal. Reason in guidelines: "There shouldn't be any unnecessary remarks in parentheses on whether the word is archaic, obsolete, non-standard, dialectal, or similar. That kind of information belongs to entries". —Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 19:26, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Useigor It's OK to use dialectal, archaic, etc, as long as they DO EXIST. The problem is that the terms used as descendants seem simply wrong. Russian "яр" is not a descendant of *jaro. Ukrainian and Bulgarian don't have "йар". What is your source? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Useigor, Wikitiki89, CodeCat I have attempted to clean up the descendants a bit - removed some dubious and added some new ones. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:08, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev Can you clarify your concerns? As I see it, there are a few issues:

1. *ěro vs. *jaro etc. *jaro is what ESSja has, *ěro is what Derksen has. These are different reconstructions of the same Proto-Slavic word.
2. *jaro vs. *jara vs. *jarъ. Both ESSja and Derksen have all three forms, which were evidently dialectal differences in Common Slavic.
3. Possibly bogus descendants in the sense that they aren't words in the specified languages.
4. яр isn't descended from *jaro (but from *jarъ). By convention when there are variant reconstructions we put all the descendants under the main form and make the others soft redirects, rather than splitting the descendants among the variants. Benwing2 (talk) 03:38, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev In case you didn't get the ping. Benwing2 (talk) 03:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Benwing2 My main concern was bogus descendants (ru, uk, bg) (IMO) but nobody provided sources. Spelling "йа-" is not used in Ukrainian, Belarusian and Bulgarian. I'm not convinced Russian яр is a descendant, unless there is some rare/obsolete sense I'm not aware of.

The only remaining noun similar to the sense "spring" in Russian is яра́ (jará) - obsolete and obscure. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev Derksen lists Russian яр "heat, fire" (dialectal) as a descendant. Ukrainian яр "spring" is also given (or rather, jar "spring" is given and I'm translating into Cyrillic). Derksen also has a separate entry for *ěrь which seems to also mean "spring" and has the descendants Russian ярь "spring, spring field, spring wheat" (dialectal), Old Russian ярь "spring corn", Ukrainian ярь "spring, spring corn", Czech jař "spring corn", etc. Benwing2 (talk) 03:58, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Great, let's add those in the right spelling, since you got a source. I'll be offline for a while... --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:04, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev in the same ED of SL you can see sources in parentheses:

• йъръ "тепло, жар", "летняя жара" (П. Петков. Еленски речник. — БД VII, 63)
• йара "пар, испарения" (М. Младенов. Говорът на Ново село, Видинско 236)
• яр "самый жар, огонь, пыл, разгар", "яровое поле" (Даль IV, 1580)
• йар "весна" (Шило. Південно-західні говори УРСР на північ від Дністра 245)

Books are pretty old and unpopular, so i managed to find 2 of 4 online links. —Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 12:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Useigor OK, thanks. I might be wrong about bg. Not sure any more that "йа-"/"йъ-" are/were not allowed (the spelling). I wonder if uk "йар" is a mistake (the actual spelling). Mistakes do happen in dictionaries. Vasmer says "яръ" only happens in OCV, so ru "яр" still needs to be checked against other sources (it seems controversial), the derivative "яровой" has already been added. ru "ярь" can be added as well and cs "jař". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:33, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev й in uk йар is not mistake, in ED of SL *jętry (08, page 188-189) you can find uk йатроўка, йатруха from the same source (Шило), also uk йарина in *jarina from another source. I don't see why ru яр is controversial.

	OES	CS-Russian	Russian
ED of SL	ꙗра "весна" _ ꙗрꙑи "весенний, яровой (о хлебных злаках)" ꙗрь "яровой хлеб"	ꙗра "весна" _ _ _	_ яр "самый жар, огонь, пыл, разгар" _ ярь "яровой хлеб"
Срезневский	ꙗра "весна" _ ꙗрꙑи "весенній, яровой (о хлѣбныхъ злакахъ)" ꙗрь "яровой хлѣбъ"
Черных	_ _ ярый ярь "яровой хлеб"		_ _ _ ярь
Vasmer	_ _ яръ (ꙗръ) "весенний, летний" _	яра (ꙗра) "весна" _ _ _	_ _ _ ярь "яровой хлеб"
Даль			яр "самый жар, огонь, пыл, разгар"

—Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 14:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Useigor Thanks for the efforts! "яр" and "ярь" look good but I can't agree with some spellings. "йар" can't be a Ukrainian spelling, neither can "йатроўка" or" йатруха". "йатроўка" must be an attempt to respell phonetically "ятровка". Letter "ў" was only used in Belarusian, Dungan, Yupik and Cyrillic Uzbek, occasionally in Russian, only to render [w], not in real spellings. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:08, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev I don't know why dialectal words are written so. Anyway i don't mind if you suggest to write яр instead of йар.—Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 14:25, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

About Ярило

Ярило (name of a Slavic pagan god) was derived from either *jarъ or *jaro. In English, the god is known as "Yarilo", so which part should the name Ярило be placed under (like Russian, Belarusian, or derived terms)?

PulauKakatua19 (talk) 04:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)