Talk:θύρα

@Xoristzatziki: shouldn't the sense "door" be labeled (archaic) or something in Modern Greek? And is it really a borrowing from Ancient Greek, or is it inherited? --Barytonesis (talk) 07:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Γεια σας. Ποια είναι η διαφορά ανάμεσα σε "πόρτα" και "θύρα" παρακαλώ; "θύρα" είναι σπάνια ή λόγια λέξη, δεν είναι; --Barytonesis (talk) 16:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

reply to πόρτα-θύρα

Bonsoir @Barytonesis: :)) Θύρα is not a rare word in mod.gre But it is used in learned standard expressions. Greek dictionaries @pyli usually mark these words as λόγιος = intellectual, learned. Not αρχαϊκή archaic (=extremely ancien). Here at θύρα, i would write:

---Sense 1: door: the ancient meaning used in mod. as learned, and metaphorically (See Expressions). [The phrase Άνοιξε την θύρα(ν) is NOT acceptable in gre.mod. except in irony. Άνοιξε την πόρτα. (Open the door). is correct. So, Sense 1 does not function really, but the meaning is understood by all mod. greeks: θύρα = πόρτα.

---NUNANCES added to the anc meaning: sense 2 and 3. These are OK. but MOSTLY

---METAPHORICCALY: phrase παραβιάζω ανοιχτες θύρες, = i try to prove a self evident thing. Άνοιξε τη θύρα του παραδείσου. (He opened the door of paradise) is acceptable.

We have the same in French! enfoncer des portes ouvertes --Barytonesis (talk) 11:18, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

---in ANCIENT/KATHAREVOUSA expressions: κεκλεισμένων των θυρών (why does wiktionary has this horrible Derived TERMS heading.. it is not a term, it is an expression.) Oοο There is NO κεκλεισμένος των θυρών except in a grammatical exercice. The expression... i have to check this more. It is Always-Genetivus. I also dont know when it was first attested. I would guess it is byz . I ll go fix this.

---in ANCIENT expressions intact: επί θύραις = ad portas (for danger) (as in Hannibal's case) (dont know if this is a trans lat to gre.Koine) or anc to llat.

I would put πόρτα = synonym

The derived θύραθεν & θυρεός of the Ancient Greek Section survive in mod gre too. Plus θυρίδα (vault) of a bank. παράθυρο (window). Αλσο: τα θυρανοίξια. (the official opening of a temple). I have to check all these. P.S. And if i may add a comm to your other question, Greek inherits. English, Fre,,, borrow. (Personally i prefer a term: 'Surviving' for gre.anc+mod words). sarri.greek (talk) 17:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Learned borrowing?

Modern Greek borrows? I think it inherits. I read at learned borrowing: word... borrowed from a classical language into a modern language. But Italians inherit from the romans, and greeks from greeks, I think. I don't know about hindu and Chinese... probably the same case. And when the words are identical, I like to say 'surviving word'. sarri.greek (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: it's more complicated than that. French descends from Latin, yes, but many, many words have in fact been (learnedly) borrowed from Latin in the Renaissance period. This fact is made very clear when you compare etymological doublets: for example, récupérer–recouvrer both come from Latin recuperāre, but récupérer is borrowed, while recouvrer is inherited. (See Category:French doublets for more examples.) See also my message to Saltmarsh. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:16, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I am thinking... I think of the verbs 'inherit' and 'borrow' in terms of history and law rather than linguistics. I'll sleep on it. Promise. sarri.greek (talk) 12:21, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

D'accord @Barytonesis. 'I shall never contradict Baryton again'. 'I shall never doubt Βαρυτόνηση again'. A pianist cannot know what 'borrow' means in linguistics. I am a case of 'cultutal shock': Borrow to me, has to do with money. Inherit, with family. Linguists are interested in the itinerary of a word, all i knew was the root. I was under the illusion that whatever greek word i choose to use, from whatever period, is like picking cherries from my own basket, as though there has never been a break to the thread of greek. I do it in english too. In my CV i've been writing: I teach pianists under eccolapsis. We are allowed to use any latin or greek word, i am told. And i thought -i confess to vanity- that if I do it, i inherit, but it you do it, you borrow. I humbly apologize. [P.S. I did not sleep, i've done a lot of reading.] sarri.greek (talk) 01:11, 4 December 2017 (UTC)