Talk:جموں و کشمیر

Calque

@Ash wki - Hi. In regards to the edit. It's most likely that English and Hindi lemmas are calques of جموں و کشمیر - considering how Urdu has historically been the official language of the region and not English or Hindi. Also, in Hindi, the و (o) particle isn't used, hence why it gets substituted with और (aur). Additionally, it's not necessary for Hindi and Urdu lemmas to be exactly the same. Take जम्मू (jammū) for instance, which is different to جَمُّوں (jammūṉ). نعم البدل (talk) 15:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Hello. Ok then what about words like, say, rasm-o-riwāj? In Hindi, it's not रस्म और रिवाज (rasm aur riwāj) but रस्म-ओ-रिवाज (rasm-o-riwāj). And if we argue it's just a transliteration of the Urdu, why use hyphens and instead just write it as रस्मोरिवाज (rasmoriwāj)? Yes, Urdu was the language of the majority Kashmiris in addition to their mother tongue Kashmiri but are we certain it was the official language of the princely state? I mean the government was headed by a Hindu Maharaja under whom the Muslim massacre in Jammu took place and more importantly it was really the British who created the state after defeating the Sikh Empire in the Anglo-Sikh War. It's more likely that it was them who named the state, in the same way Syria, Libya or Jordan (originally Transjordan) in the Middle East came to be called so with their respective native Arabic names being transliterations (Libya -> ليبيا) or translations (Transjordan -> شرق الأردن (sharq al-urdunn)) of the Anglo-French names.

As for the Hindi spelling of Jammu, it's also जम्मूं (jammū̃), i.e. with nasalized ū but the nasalization in many words in Hindi are less common now. The anusvara (the nasalization dot above the last word) has become optional in certain cases. Ash wki (talk) 17:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ash wki: - I've not really seen Jammu being written as जम्मूं (jammū̃) (and wouldn't it be जम्मूँ (jammū̃)?) - unless it was in Dogri, or referring to Urdu works/publications or it may just a dated or archaic lemma in Hindi now. The point is the Hindi and Urdu lemmas are different.

As for रस्मोरिवाज (rasmorivāj) - I'm not sure what your point is here. Urdu lemmas which have the و (o) particle, when transliterated into Devanagari, is always separated with a dash because it's a separate word/letter, so it has to be treated as an initial letter in Devanagari, hence the ओ, and not ो. But even with that, I'm saying that जम्मू और कश्मीर is a calque of جموں و کشمیر, so it wouldn't need to be transliterated anyways?

...and more importantly it was really the British who created the state after defeating the Sikh Empire in the Anglo-Sikh War. - And the official languages during the British Raj were English as well as Urdu, no? So either of them could have been calques? Maybe the Hindi term was calqued from English, but the Urdu/English were introduced at the same time? نعم البدل (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Also, جموں و کشمیر can be found in Urdu publications dating back to the 19th Century on Google books at the very least (which is the furthest back you can go for Urdu books), but not for जम्मू और कश्मीर (jammū aur kaśmīr). نعم البدل (talk) 17:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Both the chandrabindu and the anusvara can be used but yes, the chandrabindu would be more grammatically proper in this case.

My point was that the use of hyphens to separate the o disproves both your arguments that Hindi and Urdu lemmas don't have to be exact and that و article is not used in Hindi. Why go to lengths to separate it when the Hindi could have been written simply as रस्मोरिवाज?

As for جموں و کشمیر appearing in 19th century publications and not जम्मू और कश्मीर, ok I can see it's possible what you said is the correct position, though I still doubt due to the naming convension being more British in nature (e.g. "Central Provinces and Berar", "Agra and Oudh"). If it was natively named, it would've just been called Kashmir or (since the capital was Srinagar) Jammu (Compare with other princely states and provinces that were named before the Raj such Hyderabad, Mysore, Bhopal, or Sind, Bengal). There was no reason to include both unless you are thinking like a colonial administrator.

Ash wki (talk) 18:56, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ash wki: Hmm, you also have a valid point. Perhaps we could add both etymologies, Where a calque as a potential etymology is mentioned alongside the compound etymology? نعم البدل (talk) 09:55, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Alright. That's fair enough. Thanks. - Ash wki (talk) 10:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC)