Talk:ریواس

Cognates with Latin rāpum, Ancient Greek ῥάφανος (rháphanos), German Rübe, Proto-Slavic *rěpa

@Victar It has been added by Irman, but it seems not implausible. “According to Beekes” ῥάφανος (rháphanos) has only European cognates, but Beekes often ashamingly ignores Eastern cognates, maybe Irman is more right than Beekes. One page of the Greek and Persian is wrong anyway, so we need someone to solve. Fay Freak (talk) 11:45, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I'll try and put together an Iranian entry, but the forms look all over the place. I'm surprised Beekes doesn't mention Iranian, because {{R:ira:SI|548}} speculates that Ancient Greek ῥῆον (rhêon) is borrowed from it (via earlier *rewon). --{{victar|talk}} 00:58, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@Victar Friendly reminder. I have created Proto-Slavic *rěpa for your convenience. Fay Freak (talk) 21:25, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: It's messy, and I wish I had better sources, but I created Iranian *(h)rabā́š (“rhubarb, fennel”). Feel free to adjust that and this entry in accordance. Thanks. --{{victar|talk}} 19:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I changed around the etymology some. A PIE entry would probably be a good idea. --{{victar|talk}} 20:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

@Victar Good, I would have added the same comparisons of course. But the PIE lemma would be arbitrary? It is contended at various places that this is a wanderwort and the phonological difficulties come from many an attested term and proto-term having been borrowed at some point. There seem to be various speculative PIE forms, and if Proto-Iranian is already so hard … (aposiopesis) Fay Freak (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I created a *(s)rā́ps entry. The *p ~ *bʰ alternation is pretty easy to come by with s-stem root noun. --{{victar|talk}} 02:47, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Pinging @Calak, Profes.I. to give them a chance to add something they perhaps know. Fay Freak (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Has User:Profes.I. replied to anything in the past few years? --{{victar|talk}} 02:47, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Yea.

@Victar The acute over Albanian words as on *(s)rā́ps shows the stress and is not written and we have already an entry on rrepë. Maybe you can create a module for stripping the acute, especially as those Albanians have it hard with spelling. Fay Freak (talk) 02:52, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: Ah, good catch. I guess they're just academic? I've added a filter for them. --{{victar|talk}} 03:17, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Victar The stress in Albanian seems somewhat free hence a stress mark somewhat necessary like for Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian and Russian etc. (also Romanian and Italian but Wiktionary rarely uses it for them). It is said like the stress is usually on the penultimate or last syllable of the stem, but there are also differneces in Tosk and Gheg it is said and vowel length is sometimes marked by acute in open syllables. Also of course in obsolete forms of the Albanian alphabet (more than 100 years ago) there were other conventions like using é for what is now e and e for what is now ë, this evidently because it fits a French typewriter. The filter prevents people from linking and adding such spellings which is in my view good as this is on the level of normalization and readers don’t expect that they can search such spellings in a dictionary.

I see you linking Albanian via {{lect}}. Can you document it? Fay Freak (talk) 12:30, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

With *loboda

@Victar:

• How do we want to keep these wanderwords apart? I see now that there is λάπαθον (lápathon, “sorrel”) listed on Proto-Iranian *(h)rabā́š (“rhubarb”) while at the same time I have it listed on Proto-Slavic *loboda with all the cognates there. We probably do not equate these words, I guess it is too much of a stretch semantically, in view of this better place, to put λάπαθον (lápathon, “sorrel”) to Proto-Iranian *(h)rabā́š (“rhubarb”); unless with your knowledge of Iranian morphology you see a kind of derived term in Iranian that would explain the geographical distribution of the word family *loboda (like with Proto-Turkic *sarmïsak; it would be huge, since most writers failed to notice the family beyond Indo-European in Turkic).
• We need to do something about helpless palaver on ῥάφανος (rháphanos); if only to link it to that Proto-Iranian page, I might just derive it from the *(h)rábnah (< *(s)rábʰnas) listed on the Proto-Iranian page to link then to it and avoid those lengthy cognate lists on the Ancient Greek page only serving to point to the dustbin category of Pre-Greek.
• As you apparently are ably to explain the -ανος (-anos) part in ῥάφανος (rháphanos) from Iranian, so can you for λάχανον (lákhanon), πήγανον (pḗganon), πύανος (púanos) and other words Beekes probably calls Pre-Greek with -ανος (-anos) or -ανον (-anon)? I already drove away πήγανον (pḗganon) from that Pre-Greek claim by pointing out the Georgian word. Fay Freak (talk) 09:48, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: It's not a word found in any Synthian dialects, which is how I would have assumed it to spread to Slavic, if that's what you're thinking. λάπαθον (lápathon) is used for both Monk's rhubarb (which is actually one of two species of dock) and sorrel, illustrating how rhubarb, dock, and sorrel tend to get mixed up. I wonder if the Slavic was actually borrowed from the Greek, as OP *rabaθaʰ → λάπαθος (lápathos) strikes me as more convincing than PSl. *loboda → λάπαθος (lápathos). --{{victar|talk}} 20:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I just assumed ῥάφανος (rháphanos) a derivative of ῥάφη (rháphē) or ῥάφυς (rháphus). --{{victar|talk}} 20:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Victar: I see now, we have a great semantic connection and this this be all a family, as the one heap means Rheum and the other heap in part Rumex which is of the same tribe and the other heap various Chenopodieae which are only of the same order but still comparable as vegetable plants and in any case the meaning variation is visible within Turkic (where it almost everywhere means Chenopodieae except for Turkish where it means, as a standard, Rumex and I only found one locus on Google Books specifically ascribing the meaning Chenopodium album to Turkish; I did not list the more specific meanings of the rest of the Turkic words as the amount of material already swoll beyond limits for someone who wanted but to create a Slavic page so that it took me a night and sometimes of course there only were vernacular translations in Russian).
• I think it is maybe a bit far or much of a detour for a word or plant name to go from Iranian to Greek and then to Slavic, especially for this plant as opposed to more exotic plants, and even the exotic plant names seem to come from Latin to Proto-Slavic, like *kъduňa, *čeršьňa, *persky, *pьpьrь; from Category:Proto-Slavic terms derived from Ancient Greek I see no likely example at all of any Proto-Slavic word having come immediately from Greek, what is more: in the recently discussed *skovorda apparently a Greek word has come via Iranian; interestingly in Ancient Greek θύμβρον (thúmbron), θύμβρα (thúmbra, “savory”) Ancient Greek θ (th) corresponds to Proto-Slavic *č in *čǫbьrъ instead of the θ (th) → *d correspondence you suggest – perhaps the word for savory is also an Iranian borrowing as for a somewhat Eastern herb –; and then there is still the fact that we have those metathesized Baltic forms meaning Atriplex which witness great age.
• About Ancient Greek we would want to know how much borrowings there are actually from Eastern European Indo-European as opposed to Iranian; I theoretize that they are more likely given that Persia was “the other”, the arch-enemy, to whom there were clearer borders, and on the other hand there must have been fluent transitions between Greek and Dacian and Thracian like there were later between Slavic and Byzantine Greek which could specifically let plant names pass in rural areas, in this case an ultimately Iranian word coming to Greek via Eastern Europe rather than via the Southeast. In any case so far I think I know how to connect the pages, the Proto-Slavic *loboda will get another paragraph pointing to *(h)rabā́š ~ *(h)rabacáh as possible source, which I can formulate openly in regard to the directness of the borrowing. Fay Freak (talk) 21:33, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I created Proto-Turkic *alabuta for good measure. I can't really say I know anything about Greek borrowings into Slavic, but I can say Ancient Greek borrowed loads of words from Old and Middle Persian, including ῥῆον (rhêon, “rhubarb”) (which I mentioned in the thread above). Interesting about Grk θ > PSl. *č, but that could also to only word-initial, or simply erratic. I know it's sexy to throw in Thracian, but I don't f**k with dat sh*t. --{{victar|talk}} 01:30, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, what you made is chronologically a bit problematic. Common Turkic was a contemporary of Proto-Balto-Slavic (ca. 500 BCE was when both broke apart, it is believed: more obviously Proto-Slavic existed when Old Turkic is already attested, as for example we may date Proto-Slavic by whoever exactly that Germanic *korľь) was; this is also why I put “Balto-Slavic” at the Iranian page – suggesting that the Baltic forms could have been metathesized unlike the Slavic forms.

I was unsure about the presence in Common Turkic due to its absence in Siberian Turkic in the members of which I specifically searched reflexes of this with no hit and even if the Common Turkic is posited anyway I am unsure about the form, about the penultimate vowel and why it would begin with *a…. I don’t know if it can be the *(h)… in the Iranian word; maybe however only the Anatolian Turkish form is the original and elsewhere a change spread – if this modern comparison be not too vulgar, like marketing in the late twentieth century of our era added some soundful endings in inventing the words canola and arugula.

I don’t like those obscure intermediaries either, but they also had their statistical shares, as they existed. Between all of Greek and Slavic, Slavic and Iranian, Turkic and Iranian there was something in between. Fay Freak (talk) 02:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: That's actually the case for a lot of "Proto-Turkic" words; they're catch-alls for borrowings that proliferated across Turkic languages, but also the age of PT (read Common Turkic) is highly disputed. We have a few PT words borrowed from Middle Persian and other Iranian languages. I don't like it very much myself either, but it's the system we have.

I see, so you're thinking a metathesis occured in both Baltic branched? We'd also have to account for a nasalization Lithuanian, or is that a normal outcome? I'm just as inclined to think they're simply parallel formations from *h₂elbʰós (“white”) and *bʰelH- (“white”), per Derksen. 🤷‍♂️ --{{victar|talk}} 03:02, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Old Anatolian Turkish tends to exhibit PT *t > d, which is why I reconstructed the entry at *alabuta, but maybe @Crom daba can chime in. --{{victar|talk}} 03:11, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I think you are referring to a later dialectal change as discussed on User talk:Allahverdi Verdizade § طبانجه. On the other hand if you look at the Proto-Turkic entries at the letter D for example we have Oghuz /d/ against /t/ in most other branches. Too bad if one has /d/ → /d/ in branch A and /d/ → /t/ in branch B and also /t/ → /d/ in branch A. Fay Freak (talk) 13:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Strange changes can happen if a plant is only mildly relevant in an area, see Russian берескле́т (beresklét, “spindle tree”), related to for instance Polish trzmielina (“spindle tree”).

I still don’t understand where whiteness strikes the eye in any of those plants, and I have suspicions if a meaning becomes too general. Fay Freak (talk) 03:09, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

White goosefoot has a very distinct white middle to it. --{{victar|talk}} 03:16, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Fay Freak:, @Victar:, I apologize for getting into this, but the Great Soviet Encyclopedia says, that the leaves (on the back) and the stem are covered with a mealy bloom (мучни́стый налёт).

The Old East Slavic shows the accent paradigm b in this word, as, for example, Slovincian... Proto-Slavic *ȏlbǫdь -- accent paradigm c. This can already be considered strange circumstances. I would not compare these forms. Gnosandes (talk) 04:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay, if you call that distinct. It’s at a certain state of growth from a certain angle (many specimens on an image search are not much white, and one would not get the idea of calling it white when browsing c:Category:Chenopodium album; perhaps it also depends somewhat on photography skills). Here a bloke says “I see white on every plant”. With that etymology it needs to be the original plant the word referred to. He quotes it as “one of the worst weeds and most widespread synanthropic plants on the Earth”. And here we have Chenopodium album subsp. amaranticolor with purple center. Fay Freak (talk) 13:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)