Talk:აბჯარი

On Etymology

@Vahagn Petrosyan, Hello! Again haha. Welp so I was reading some papers Shanidze wrote on Etymology of ქართველი and ქართლი in a sum-up way. So there he mentions მზია ანდრონიკაშვილი, who was an Iranist, and Shanidze mentions on pdf page 7:

"ცნობილ ირანისტს მზია ანდრონიკაშვილს მოჰყავს სია პართული წარმომავლობის სიტყვებისა ქართულში. აქ აღნუსხულია 66 სიტყვა (აბჯარი, ავაზაკი, ჰამბავი, ჰასაკი და სხვ.) რომლებიც პართული წარმოშობისად მიაჩნია ავტორს და რომლებიც უშუალოდ პართუელისაგან ან სომხურის საშუალებით შემოსულა ქართულში"

"Famous iranist, Mzia Andronikashvili formed a list of Georgian words of Parthian etymology. There is listed sixty-six words (..... and others) which, based on Mzia, are of parthian origin and came directly from Parthian or through Armenian." so of course ჰამბავი, ჰასაკი sure. but do you know აბჯარი? Is there such a word in Armenian? We could add her speculation in etymology. I'll try searching for the list, but idk... -Solarkoid (talk) 18:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Solarkoid: The Armenian word is օճառ (ōčaṙ). Based on its shape, the Georgian is not borrowed via Armeniaca. Andronikashvili's list is surely somewhere in {{R:ka:Andronikashvili}}. --Vahag (talk) 10:13, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: (1) Armenian word is աւճար (awčar) [theres an alternative form listed but I don't know which letter was it] according to Andronikashvili. Found the word in Nayiri. I'll update this the more info I discover. By the way, are you on Discord? Perhaps you could join the Wiktionary Discord uwu -Solarkoid (talk) 18:45, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Solarkoid: It is աւճառ (awčaṙ), equivalent to օճառ (ōčaṙ). օ (ō) is a medieval spelling of աւ (aw) before consonants, reflecting its late pronunciation. աւճար (awčar) is an alternative spelling of the dialectal word from Zeitun discussed below. Unfortunately, I don't use Discord. --Vahag (talk) 19:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: Aww would've been nice to freely communicate there. Anyhow, this is Andronikashvili talking about the word. I haven't missed a single thing I'm sure. Didn't leave anything out:

Change 1: Parthian p, Middle Persian b (According to book of words before c̆ {?}) --> Georgian ბ, Armenian ւ

(1) Georgian აბჯარი (abjari), Armenian աւճար (awjar) <-- Parthian apəc̆ar (later aβc̆ār), Middle Persian afc̆ār, afzār (Old Iranian *aβi-*c̆ārana)

Change 2: Middle Persian c̆ --> Georgian ჯ

(2) Georgian აბჯარი (abjari) <-- Middle Persian apəc̆ār

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Under "Georgian words from Parthian":

Compares Middle Persian apəc̆ār, apəz̆ār [Quoting Telegdi "Essai sur la phonetique des emprunts iraniens en arameen talmudique" CCXXVI, N2: pg.224].

Quoting Nyberg's thoughts [Hfsb, II, pg.3] Middle Persian(? - couldnt read well) afc̆ār comes from Old Iranian apic̆ara (T.(?) Parthian aβzār); Modern Persian [terms] (I guess she means comes from) Arabic abzār.

Armenian borrowings from anc̆ar, anc̆an, from Old Iranian *aβi-*c̆ārana and āc̆ar from āc̆ārana. [Quoting Acharian, I, pg.170]

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Andronikashvili considers, that Georgian form must've come from Arsacid Parthian apəc̆ar or later aβc̆ār, which wasn't retained in Iranian. Quoting:

"Change z̆ > ჯ is common for Georgian words borrowed from Iranian. This word, even though it was first attested in "მოქცევაჲ ქართლისაჲ" (Conversion of Kartli) and latter pieces of literature, it had to have been borrowed in even earlier, at the end of Arsacid period." -Solarkoid (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for translating the passage. These sound laws are disputed. I prefer to simply say "a Middle Iranian borrowing", rather than identifying the exact source, which could be Parthian, Middle Persian, Middle Median and controversially also some other Iranian languages. --Vahag (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Azerbaijani

@Vahagn Petrosyan: One thing to check comes to my mind. Is Azerbaijani açar, Persian آچار (âčâr), only similar by coincidence or is its etymology a folk-etymology and it is an Armenian borrowing or something like that? Fay Freak (talk) 15:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: It must be a coincidence. An Azerbaijani borrowing is possible only from an Armenian dialect, whereas this word survives only in Zeitun in Cilician Armenia in the form ավճոր (avčor, “legumes as garnish”). --Vahag (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2020 (UTC)