Talk:餞

@Eirikr, do you think you could make this Japanese entry FWOTD-worthy? There is everything present that technically ought to be, but it's rather messy and the quote is quite old, untranslated, and doesn't actually use this kanji, which is part of this word's appeal. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

@Μετάknowledge -- Interesting term, thanks for the ping. The entry is currently wrong; the reading is just the hanamuke part, as correctly noted in the Kanji section, but incorrectly described in the actual POS sections. I can have a go at it later. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:01, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Just made a revision, feel free to make any corrections if necessary. Domo, --POKéTalker (talk) 03:13, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

“うまのはなむけ”の漢字の書き方と例文 🤔 —suzukaze (t・c) 03:17, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not clear where they get their information. The one usex on that page is cited to 万葉集歌 (Man'yōshū-ka?), a compilation in 1948 by Mokichi Saitō. The relevant text is apparently here; search the page for "はなむけ" (poor web design, there are no id attributes anywhere for proper linking). Saitō describes this as related to Man'yōshū poem 4262, but that poem doesn't include はなむけ.

Given that this is the only usage so far, and the term doesn't appear at all in the Man'yōshū proper (no hits), I'm inclined to view this as writer's artistic license. Jim Breen's WWWJDIC for the kanji lists the reading as はなむけ, as does KDJ's entry, which includes the following note:

はなむけ【餞・贐】
（「うまのはなむけ（馬鼻向）」の略）

ja:餞 only lists はなむけ as the kun'yomi, not the longer うまのはなむけ. DJR and DJS give both the shorter and longer readings, but the only sources for the longer readings are things like the Tosa Nikki (935), The Tales of Ise (late 800s), and The Pillow Book (early 1000s).

google books:"餞" "うまのはなむけ" brings up 221 ostensible hits, collapsing to 27 when paging through. Not enough of them are fully viewable, however -- pretty much just the scanno-full OCR extract blurb shown in the hits list, or at best a slightly-fuller but stille error-prone "snippet view".

Can anyone find any vaguely recent usage of this character with the reading うまのはなむけ, in use by someone other than Saitō? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

There is also google:"餞(うまのはなむけ)", although I'm not sure if they are all durable, but including 餞（うまのはなむけ）の意味 - goo国語辞書. —suzukaze (t・c) 06:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Scanning the first page, those appear to be mentions ("guess how to read this character?") or extrapolations, such as at http://kiyokagen.seesaa.net/article/420496880.html, an explication of Man'yōshū poem 549, where the article writer applies the うまのはなむけ reading to this character, but with no phonetic evidence. Digging through to evaluate will take some time. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:32, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Going through my backlog with some rare open time today.

• 餞（うまのはなむけ）の意味 - goo国語辞書 entry:

They source this to the Tosa Nikki. The problem with doing so is that this work makes minimal use of kanji, and is mostly written in kana. Searching through the two versions of this text made available online by the University of Virginia, the kana string うまのはなむけ doesn't even appear, as this text uses the older むま pronunciation for 馬, and the kanji 餞 is nowhere to be found. The goo site's listing of this text as a source for the umanohanamuke reading of the 餞 kanji thus appears to be mistaken at best, possibly even disingenuous.

• Poking around in other older sources, I found that the 1603 Nippo Jisho lists the term fanamuqe (i.e. はなむけ, roughly 2/3rds of the way down the right-hand column here), but nothing for umanofanamuqe (which would be on this page between vmamuxa, 馬武者, and vmanori, 馬乗り), nor for the older mumanofanamuqe (which would be on this page between mujun, 矛盾, and mumei, 無銘).
• Limiting the Google search to books as google books:"餞(うまのはなむけ)" nets us 24 ostensible hits, collapsing to 12 when paging through. None have preview, and only 8 hits show the kanji in the snippet provided. Of these 8, 1 is a dictionary listing and not a usage, 3 describe how to read the character and are thus only mentions, leaving us 4 possible usage examples -- however, even for these 4, the snippets are abridged and difficult to judge for quality.
• Changing the search to google books:"餞(はなむけ)" nets us 878 ostensible hits, collapsing to 304 when paging through. Only 2 include a preview, of which 1 is a dictionary listing, and the other does appear to be a valid and useful usage example.

I haven't bothered going through all of the snippets available, but skimming through the first 8, 3 don't actually show this kanji, and 3 more are mentions, leaving only 2 possible valid uses.

Whichever way we slice it, this is clearly a rare character in Japanese, and whichever reading, that's also rare, with the shorter はなむけ more easily verified.

Later on, as time allows, I'll condense the above findings into something more appropriate for a dictionary entry. I think we do want to list the longer うまのはなむけ reading, so long as we make it very clear that this is extremely rare, and does not appear in most dictionaries. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:03, 3 May 2018 (UTC)