Talk:𠊬

𠊬 (jué) vs 㑢 (jué)

@Justinrleung Hey. What's up! Thanks for telling me about the existence of 《漢語方言大詞典》. I've looked up the character and here's what's I found. Both 𠊬 (jué) and 㑢 (jué) are available at page 5562 and 4243 respectively with definitions corresponding to that listed in Etymology 1 and 2. I am interested to know whether there are instances of 𠊬 (jué) being used in the sense of Etymology 2. Neither of the characters can be found in 漢語方言用字參考表. KevinUp (talk) 11:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, here is the convention used by 《漢語方言大詞典》 with regards to the simplification of characters used in the head entry (quoted verbatim):

「条目领头单字的简化原则是以《简化字总表》中的132个“可作简化偏旁用的简化字”和14个“简化偏旁”为准，凡可类推简化的繁体字都类推简化。凡偏旁类推的简化字和《第一批异体字整理表》中的选用字，都作为正条收列，相应的繁体字和异体字用小号字加括号注于正文领头单字之后，但正文中一律不另列附件条。」 KevinUp (talk) 11:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, may I know where I can find instances of 卻／却 (què) and 屐 (jī) being used as variant forms of the dialectal definition provided in Etymology 2? Thanks. KevinUp (talk) 11:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp: Thanks for finding 𠊬 in 漢語方言大詞典. I actually haven't found any instance of 𠊬 used for etymology 2; I just inferred the traditional form from 㑢. Here's what I've found for etymology 2:

• 㑢: 漢語方言大詞典, 珠江三角洲方言詞彙對照, 漢語方言詞彙, Stephen Li
• 却: 台山語料, 廣東粵方言概要, Stephen Li
• 𠳞: Chinese-Cantonese (Toishan) Basic Course
• 屐: Stephen Li

@Suzukaze-c, Dokurrat, KevinUp, do you think we should move etymology 2 to 㑢? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:43, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me, but... Actually, I don't care that much. In my native dialect (and I think in many other Chinese dialects as well), there're quite some words and expressions used colloquially and may remain unwritten (even if some of them may be used by literati and thus have been written, such forms may still be considerably unknown or unpopular). How established these written forms are? Is this word used chiefly orally as well? Dokurrat (talk) 10:12, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: AFAIK this word is uncommonly written, but the forms above are what I've found in the sources. 却 is a common variant used in traditional Chinese, so it is unsurprising to find forms with 却 also in traditional contexts (珠江三角洲方言詞彙對照, 台山語料, Basic Course). I'm not sure if this means we can treat 㑢 as a simplified/variant form of 𠊬. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 10:24, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I think, as for this particular case, as 却 is a common traditional form, and even these sourced written forms are not popular, I'm a bit prefer "if 𠊬 is unused for this sense, don't list this sense in 𠊬's entry". I don't care much, though. Dokurrat (talk) 10:40, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Dokurrat that many colloquial words and expressions used in Chinese dialects remain unwritten and that their written forms are considerably unknown or unpopular. Nevertheless, even if the written forms are unknown, entries for these dialectal words and phrases can still be created on Wiktionary by using their romanized forms, eg. Jyutping for Cantonese or Pe̍h-ōe-jī for Min Nan for the sake of posterity. On the other hand, 却 (què) is also a common variant used in traditional Chinese (as stated by Dokurrat). In fact, 卻／却 (què) is considered a variant character, rather than the traditional form of 却 (què) in the People's Republic of China - Refer 《第一批異體字整理表》 (1955) and 《通用規范漢字表》 (2013). Since variant forms are not applicable for its derived characters (the concept 類推異體字 does not exist, unlike 類推簡化字), 𠊬 (jué) should not be considered a traditional/variant form of 㑢 (jué). The definitions of 𠊬 (jué) and 㑢 (jué) has been split based on 《漢語方言大詞典》. KevinUp (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, the variant forms 卻／却 (què) and 屐 (jī) provided by Stephen Li's Taishanese dictionary has been omitted due to dissimilar pronunciation and unrelated definitions. KevinUp (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp: 却 and 屐 are (near) homophones of 㑢 in Taishanese. They're 借音字, so I think they should be included. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:29, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, 却 is not just in Stephen Li's dictionary, but also in 台山語料 by 趙元任 and 廣東粵方言概要 by 詹伯慧. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)