Talk:Schembeis

RFV discussion: December 2019–January 2023

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Schembeis

German. "reference book"s don't attest anything for Well-Documented Languages (WT:CFI, WT:WDL), and too few results at Google Books. --B-Fahrer (talk) 02:47, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I created Schembeis and I just wanted to mention that some Sondersprachen are not very well documented in general for obvious reasons as they function as secret languages. In the entry I have referenced the word with the “Illustrated Lexicon of German Colloquialisms/Slang” and quoted from a book about a distinct variety of Sondersprache. If this does not meet the attestation criteria then that’s the way it is. It’d be a pity though. I wonder how documenting these kind of cants should be done then? — Best regards, Caligari ^Ɔɐ^ƀïиϠ_Ⴕ 10:08, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

[1], [2], [3].  --Lambiam 10:37, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

That should count as one usage (WT:CFI#Independent) as the sources are: Klaus Siewert (editor), Textbuch Masematte & Textbuch Masematte II & Textbuch Masematte III. --B-Fahrer (talk) 15:41, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Siewert only selected these stories from the archives of the Masematte project group, which collects them to make sure this endangered lect is archived from original speakers before it dies out. The sources of these stories are independent people.  --Lambiam 19:15, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

What's the evidence for this: "The sources of these stories are independent people."? As far as I can see, the texts start with the title and end - there's no author given next to the title or at the end. The contents don't give an author either. As an additional note, the text of the 2nd book states that proper Masematte was never written and that written Masematte is younger, less authentic. --B-Fahrer (talk) 16:37, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Because of the gender change in the entry, also RFV for the gender, if the term itself is attested. 1st and 2nd book have "im Schembeis" (m. or n.), 3rd book has "son Schembeis" (should be m. or n.) and "noch innen Schembeis" (should be m.). --B-Fahrer (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Yiddish בית‎ (beys) can be both m. and f., and you’d expect the gender to be retained in borrowing Germanic languages that have grammatical gender, possibly frozen on one of the two possibilities. Rotwelsch Beiz is reported here as m., but the Dutch cant bajes as f.. The Hebrew etymon בַּיִת is m. In view of this all, neuter gender looks somewhat improbable.  --Lambiam 18:20, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

The gender change was due to a typo of mine. My bad. In the reference book by Küpper the gender is neuter. Compare Rotwelsch Bajes (and its various alternative forms such as Bais, Baiß, Baiz etc.) which is neuter as well and also from Yiddish בית‎ (beys). (Source: Siegmund A. Wolf: Wörterbuch des Rotwelschen: Deutsche Gaunersprache. Hamburg: Helmut Buske Verlag, 1987, p. 40.) — Caligari ^Ɔɐ^ƀïиϠ_Ⴕ 20:07, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I typed up a few more cites, but as noted above, they were all edited by Klaus Siewert and published by Waxmann, so the independence is debatable. I did find one other author using the spelling Schembais. Other spellings found in works edited by Siewert include Schemmbeis, Schemmbais. - -sche (discuss) 21:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Possibilities which could rescue the entry:

• Provide more information from the insides of the books. The editor gives texts by multiple persons like Klaus Siewert (w), Hanna Schön, Dieter Harhues (and his pseudonym Kalli Kneistermann; a), Wolfgang Schemann, Reinhild Hoffmeister.
• Treat Rotwelsch including Masematte as a separate language, like how it's done for example with the Alemannic and Bavarian dialect.

--01:37, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Looks clean. Editor ≠ author, so independent, per Lambiam; as I understand the CFI, we don’t have the onus probandi that “the sources of these stories are independent people”, but it is an exception if the cites are “non-independent” by reason of being “by the same author”, as it is the regular and natural situation of various texts in a large library or corpus that they are not by the same author (Sagan standard). Also we can slap Template:normalized onto it and ignore the spelling variation (also cited Citations:Schembais) as one of the words no one knows from writing anyway, so this is cited. Fay Freak (talk) 03:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)