Talk:a promise is a promise
Latest comment: 9 years ago by BD2412 in topic RFD
RFD
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- Delete. A deal is a deal, a vow is a vow, a contract is a contract. bd2412 T 01:10, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- And none of these are mere invocations of the law of identity. —Keφr 15:19, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- I think I'm agreeing with Kephir. Somehow these all seem different from "A box is a box". People seem to use these expressions to say that something labelled as an X should be taken seriously as an X with all the (legal) implications of so being. DCDuring TALK 15:53, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- If so, then we have other possibilities that aren't mere invocations of the law of identity - a win is a win, a profit is a profit, a customer is a customer. Perhaps the solution here is to create an appendix of terms for which "a foo is a foo" or "an X is an X" has some significance beyond identification. bd2412 T 16:04, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Well, it is what it is: a simple equivocation. A promise ("a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified") is a promise ("a legally binding declaration that gives the person to whom it is made a right to expect or to claim the performance or forbearance of a specified act"), both definitions taken from MWOnline. That is it uses "promise" in both its primary and a secondary sense. Say, wouldn't the fact that a secondary sense is used ipso facto lead to inclusion under the principle invoked in favor or keeping better dead than red? DCDuring TALK 16:43, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Are we sure that the meaning of "promise" differs from the first use to the second? The definition that we have says nothing about it being legally binding. I don't see it as being any different from "a vow is a vow", for which there is no "legal" sense. bd2412 T 16:58, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- I am now, though I didn't start out that wiht that thought. We could probably tell from some of the citations. DCDuring TALK 17:43, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Come to think of it, isn't a promise is a promise a shortening of "a promise made (should|ought) [be] a promise kept", which makes explicit the gap between the making and the keeping? That kind of gap also exists for the "vow", "law", and "contract" expressions? DCDuring TALK 17:52, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Isn't there a comparable gap for "a box is a box"? For example, if Bob can't decide which box to use, and Joe says, "come on Bob, a box is a box", Joe isn't merely articulating a standard of identity, he is saying that "any box is as good as any other box". This probably goes even further for "a customer is a customer", which suggests that the customer is good to have even if it is not the one you'd prefer to have. bd2412 T 18:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see it, which is probably one reason it is hard to find that expression in use. In any event, this expression is just an alternative form of a promise made is a promise kept, which is not transparent because it uses one or more Clintonian senses of is ("should be" or "can be relied on as being"). DCDuring TALK 18:13, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Many expressions of the form "an X is an X" seem to be construed as "an X is just/only an X", whereas others seem to rely on some kind of equivocaton. DCDuring TALK 18:28, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see it, which is probably one reason it is hard to find that expression in use. In any event, this expression is just an alternative form of a promise made is a promise kept, which is not transparent because it uses one or more Clintonian senses of is ("should be" or "can be relied on as being"). DCDuring TALK 18:13, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Isn't there a comparable gap for "a box is a box"? For example, if Bob can't decide which box to use, and Joe says, "come on Bob, a box is a box", Joe isn't merely articulating a standard of identity, he is saying that "any box is as good as any other box". This probably goes even further for "a customer is a customer", which suggests that the customer is good to have even if it is not the one you'd prefer to have. bd2412 T 18:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Come to think of it, isn't a promise is a promise a shortening of "a promise made (should|ought) [be] a promise kept", which makes explicit the gap between the making and the keeping? That kind of gap also exists for the "vow", "law", and "contract" expressions? DCDuring TALK 17:52, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- I am now, though I didn't start out that wiht that thought. We could probably tell from some of the citations. DCDuring TALK 17:43, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Are we sure that the meaning of "promise" differs from the first use to the second? The definition that we have says nothing about it being legally binding. I don't see it as being any different from "a vow is a vow", for which there is no "legal" sense. bd2412 T 16:58, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Well, it is what it is: a simple equivocation. A promise ("a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified") is a promise ("a legally binding declaration that gives the person to whom it is made a right to expect or to claim the performance or forbearance of a specified act"), both definitions taken from MWOnline. That is it uses "promise" in both its primary and a secondary sense. Say, wouldn't the fact that a secondary sense is used ipso facto lead to inclusion under the principle invoked in favor or keeping better dead than red? DCDuring TALK 16:43, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- If so, then we have other possibilities that aren't mere invocations of the law of identity - a win is a win, a profit is a profit, a customer is a customer. Perhaps the solution here is to create an appendix of terms for which "a foo is a foo" or "an X is an X" has some significance beyond identification. bd2412 T 16:04, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
- Keep as beyond sum of parts. The fact that the word "promise" can be changed to near-synonyms contract, deal, and vow does not detract from this. The reader gains nothing from us replacing this with "an X is an X" or of the sort. Moreover, in a promise is a promise,a contract is a contract,a deal is a deal,a vow is a vow,a win is a win, a profit is a profit, a customer is a customer at the Google Books Ngram Viewer., "a promise is a promise" has the highest frequency, so at the very least, "a promise is a promise" should be kept as a representative of the whole pattern, and the other items could be mentioned in the usage notes if there is a wish not to keep them. Finally, the entry already has translations that are not word for word; Czech "slib je slib" is word for word, but French "chose promise, chose due" and Russian "угово́р доро́же де́нег" are not word for word. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:10, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
- Delete. It should be explained in be or is. All of the sentences A is A are similar, like war is war. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep based on the equivocation argument above, its being a shortening of a promise made is a promise kept, its inclusion in proverb dictionaries, and per DanP. DCDuring TALK 21:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
No consensus to delete. bd2412 T 13:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)